Ostende and red diesel - BEWARE

[Boz]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Of course, this whole thing could backfire on UK sailors if the agreed 'common approach' is to fine yachts found to be using red....

If the ruling is to fine boats with traces of 'Red' in their Fuel, and is EU wide, the implications are dire. There will be thousands of boats in the Mediterranean and down the Atlantic Coast that will be affected.

All of this furor may be 'Stirring up a Hornet's Nest'...... France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece et al.....

 

[Athene V30]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

If the ruling is to fine boats with traces of 'Red' in their Fuel, and is EU wide, the implications are dire. There will be thousands of boats in the Mediterranean and down the Atlantic Coast that will be affected.

Presumably not just British boats. Where do French, Belgian, Dutch etc visitors fuel up in UK? Don't they use red?

 

[Tin Tin]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Presumably not just British boats. Where do French, Belgian, Dutch etc visitors fuel up in UK? Don't they use red?

White marine diesel is reported to be available in Ramsgate.

If the ECJ does indeed side with Belgium and the blanket red diesel ban is to be applied EU-wide, then IMHO Britain will have no other option but follow suit and make it illegal for pleasure yachts to have red/marked diesel.
If not, the implications for UK yachts in the UK would be dire, not to mention the drop in tourism revenue when EU yachts stop visiting our shores.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Presumably not just British boats. Where do French, Belgian, Dutch etc visitors fuel up in UK? Don't they use red?

They won't test their own or neighbours boats.

White marine diesel is reported to be available in Ramsgate.

If the ECJ does indeed side with Belgium and the blanket red diesel ban is to be applied EU-wide, then IMHO Britain will have no other option but follow suit and make it illegal for pleasure yachts to have red/marked diesel.
If not, the implications for UK yachts in the UK would be dire, not to mention the drop in tourism revenue when EU yachts stop visiting our shores.

Far more UK boats on the Atlantic coast and English channel coasts visiting than EU boats visiting the UK.

 

[maby]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Presumably not just British boats. Where do French, Belgian, Dutch etc visitors fuel up in UK? Don't they use red?

Most of the European boats I see in UK marinas are sailing boats and able to run long distances on a single tank - I get the impression that they fill up on white before heading in this direction and avoid taking on any red. Spanish friends of ours who spent a year in this country used to bring in many gallons of white fuel from local petrol stations from time to time rather than take on red. I don't remember the last time I saw a European flagged mobo in this country.

 

[Boz]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

They won't test their own or neighbours boats.
.

I'm not sure that is true, there were reports that two Dutch boats had been fined.

The bit I can't understand is what constitutes a trace. A trace is not a legitimate measure. If it was published as so many ,parts per million or some such then British boats could take steps to comply.

The vagueness of the Belgium rule gives their customs officials Carte Blanche to fine on a whim..... Let's hope that some sense comes out of this September Conference but I'm not going to hold my breat

 

[Elemental]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

White marine diesel is reported to be available in Ramsgate.

If the ECJ does indeed side with Belgium and the blanket red diesel ban is to be applied EU-wide, then IMHO Britain will have no other option but follow suit and make it illegal for pleasure yachts to have red/marked diesel.

I have always regretted the fudge negotiated by the RYA on behalf of diesel Mobo owners (60/40 usage split for a big diesel powered 40 footer - really?). It would be far simpler for all if the UK eliminated red diesel altogether, enforcing the provision of white. Where permitted for relevant businesses, tax could then be reclaimed in the same way as VAT is.

 

[MikeBz]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Tin-foil hat alert...

They won't test their own or neighbours boats.

 

[maby]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

I have always regretted the fudge negotiated by the RYA on behalf of diesel Mobo owners (60/40 usage split for a big diesel powered 40 footer - really?). It would be far simpler for all if the UK eliminated red diesel altogether, enforcing the provision of white. Where permitted for relevant businesses, tax could then be reclaimed in the same way as VAT is.

The 60/40 really made the position completely indefensible - "OK, look, the geography of the UK really makes it impossible to limit pleasure boats to white diesel only, so we are going to let them buy red, but pay tax as if it were white - but we will let gas-guzzling motorboats have hundreds of gallons tax free in the middle of the summer to run their heating"

 

[thalassa]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Tin-foil hat alert...

Albeit five years ago, we have been tested in Belgium (Nieuwpoort) and in The Netherlands (Hansweert). Belgium registered boat.

There is NOTHING vague about the definition of 'traces' in the Belgian rule.
It is the same (...or should be the same...) as in other EU countries:
'Member States shall fix a marking level of at least 6 mg and not more than 9 mg of marker per liter of mineral oil.'
The said marker is 'Solvent Yellow 124' also called 'Euromarker yellow'.
Original directive:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2011.241.01.0031.01.ENG

The analysis is done by HPLC (chromatography).

The instances I came across was visual testing bij taking a sample from the tank. In cases that were up for discussion the sample was split in two parts and sealed. The skipper got to keep the second bottle in case of legal problems.
IMHO the whole thing boils down to the officer doing the check and the pragmatic 'unofficial' view of his direct superiors.
As an example, I had a visit from the Belgian Maritime Inspection a month ago . Quite thorough, took 1 1/2 hrs. In case of the boat next to me, he was fined 320 EUR for not having the right certificates, very old flares and 10 year old safety vests. The only problem he found on our boat was a 2 kg fire extinguisher with 10 yr old production date, but the manometer well into the green zone. It would have cost me a 160 EUR fine, but as he found the boat rather OK, I was let off. And no, I hadn't offered him a Duvel...

 

[Boz]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

Albeit five years ago, we have been tested in Belgium (Nieuwpoort) and in The Netherlands (Hansweert). Belgium registered boat.

There is NOTHING vague about the definition of 'traces' in the Belgian rule.
It is the same (...or should be the same...) as in other EU countries:
'Member States shall fix a marking level of at least 6 mg and not more than 9 mg of marker per liter of mineral oil.'
The said marker is 'Solvent Yellow 124' also called 'Euromarker yellow'.
Original directive:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2011.241.01.0031.01.ENG

The analysis is done by HPLC (chromatography).

The instances I came across was visual testing bij taking a sample from the tank. In cases that were up for discussion the sample was split in two parts and sealed. The skipper got to keep the second bottle in case of legal problems.
IMHO the whole thing boils down to the officer doing the check and the pragmatic 'unofficial' view of his direct superiors.
As an example, I had a visit from the Belgian Maritime Inspection a month ago . Quite thorough, took 1 1/2 hrs. In case of the boat next to me, he was fined 320 EUR for not having the right certificates, very old flares and 10 year old safety vests. The only problem he found on our boat was a 2 kg fire extinguisher with 10 yr old production date, but the manometer well into the green zone. It would have cost me a 160 EUR fine, but as he found the boat rather OK, I was let off. And no, I hadn't offered him a Duvel...

I'm sure you are correct - but this is the reply I received from Belgium Customs - the operative worf being 'Any' (Post 190 on this thread refers)

This was he reply to my email which I have reproduced below ( I have redacted personal details) - Short and to the point, but what are 'Union Waters' and no further information about why certain boats were targeted....

Dear Sir,

According to the Royal Decree of June 28th 2015, article 54, 2° states clearly that liquid motor fuels present, sold or used to drive an explosion or combustion engine of private pleasure crafts cannot contain any denaturates nor markers, on ilnad waterways or Union waters.

Sincerely,


Dienst PR&C - Communicatie AAD&A
Service RP&C - Communication AAD&A



Verzonden: vrijdag 14 juli 2017 15:39
Aan: Minfin Info Douane (MINFIN)
Onderwerp: Marked Diesel

 

[maby]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

I'm sure you are correct - but this is the reply I received from Belgium Customs - the operative worf being 'Any' (Post 190 on this thread refers)

This was he reply to my email which I have reproduced below ( I have redacted personal details) - Short and to the point, but what are 'Union Waters' and no further information about why certain boats were targeted....

Dear Sir,

According to the Royal Decree of June 28th 2015, article 54, 2° states clearly that liquid motor fuels present, sold or used to drive an explosion or combustion engine of private pleasure crafts cannot contain any denaturates nor markers, on ilnad waterways or Union waters.

Sincerely,


Dienst PR&C - Communicatie AAD&A
Service RP&C - Communication AAD&A



Verzonden: vrijdag 14 juli 2017 15:39
Aan: Minfin Info Douane (MINFIN)
Onderwerp: Marked Diesel

That is quite clearly an oversimplification written by someone who is neither a scientist or a lawyer. Taken literally, it would mean that you are committing an offence if there is a single molecule of the marker in your tank - but the testing processes would not be able to detect that single molecule. In practice, there will be a lower limit of concentration of marker below which the testing regime becomes unsafe and if you could commission an independent laboratory test which shows that the sample you are holding is below that limit, you would have a good case to have the charge overturned.

 

[Boz]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

That is quite clearly an oversimplification written by someone who is neither a scientist or a lawyer. Taken literally, it would mean that you are committing an offence if there is a single molecule of the marker in your tank - but the testing processes would not be able to detect that single molecule. In practice, there will be a lower limit of concentration of marker below which the testing regime becomes unsafe and if you could commission an independent laboratory test which shows that the sample you are holding is below that limit, you would have a good case to have the charge overturned.

I doesn't really matter who it was written by if it is the justification that Belgium Customs are using to impose fines

And whilst I agree with what you say, the costs involved would probably exceed the fines anyway

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

It says any which means none so they could choose whatever means of detection they wished from visual to spectroscopy.

 

[thalassa]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

That is quite clearly an oversimplification written by someone who is neither a scientist or a lawyer. Taken literally, it would mean that you are committing an offence if there is a single molecule of the marker in your tank - but the testing processes would not be able to detect that single molecule. In practice, there will be a lower limit of concentration of marker below which the testing regime becomes unsafe and if you could commission an independent laboratory test which shows that the sample you are holding is below that limit, you would have a good case to have the charge overturned.

That is correct. I've worked a number of years in a Toxicology lab, which uses the same methodology (HPLC). Calibration of the amounts (in our case illegal drugs) is not simple, and the margin of error (accuracy and/or precision) depends largely on the technique the analysis depends on, and was not universally standardised. It could ascertain the presence of the substance with 100% certainty, but quantitatively, on the very low levels, results would be up for debate.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

That is correct. I've worked a number of years in a Toxicology lab, which uses the same methodology (HPLC). Calibration of the amounts (in our case illegal drugs) is not simple, and the margin of error (accuracy and/or precision) depends largely on the technique the analysis depends on, and was not universally standardised. It could ascertain the presence of the substance with 100% certainty, but quantitatively, on the very low levels, results would be up for debate.

Again read the statement, ANY, a qualitative test is sufficient.

 

[pks1702]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

PBO reporting a few weeks 'grace'

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/fines-red-diesel-put-hold-september-53919

 

[CCJ]

Re: Ambassador's reponse to CA

The CA seems to be doing a grand job. I am seriously considering my funding to the bloated RYA.

 

[Happyboating]

Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

http://www.eadt.co.uk/news/levington-boaters-allegedly-fined-500-in-belgium-for-red-diesel-1-5129473

 

[CCJ]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

That's already posted earlier direct here