Ostende and red diesel - BEWARE

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

I have to ask the question again.

Why dye the diesel?

Have only one type of diesel available for use throughout the country and give any subsidies to farmers, heavy goods etc., by a return each quarterly as we presently do for petrol VAT returns. That way the subsidies can be varied as it suits the government favouring one group over another to meet their short term political goals.

From reading various threads this has already been suggested, so easy to set up too.

Probably afraid of the wholesale illegal use of it, you would be surprised at the number of vehicles running around on red and how many get caught.

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

Probably afraid of the wholesale illegal use of it, you would be surprised at the number of vehicles running around on red and how many get caught.

If there was no red & everyone had to reclaim the VAT then that would stop the illegal use on the roads. This is what the Belgians etc are trying to stop.
Problem the govt have is that there would be another tier of VAT or duty to be claimed for businesses ie not the 20% VAT (although there is already more than 1 tier as construction work has 3 tiers zero, 6% & 20%) Plus the claim could be open to fraud. But that is what VAT inspectors are supposed to be on the look out for.
It also makes supply of fuel for domestic heating a problem as householders could not claim back duty as they are not VAT registered
Then there is the small business lobby who are below the VAT threshold who would be unable to claim & a lot of small traders, fishermen, small greenhouse producers etc would be in this sector.

 

[Tomahawk]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

An interesting thought ..

The principle is to charge VAT on fuel used for leisure?
Wherefore then, those hotel boats cruising up and down the rivers in France Etc?

They are solely for leisure purpose.. although a commercial supply operation?
If we as leisure boat operators have to pay VAT... I think they should also be paying VAT on the fuel..

 

[maby]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

Probably afraid of the wholesale illegal use of it, you would be surprised at the number of vehicles running around on red and how many get caught.

Seems to me that doing away with marked fuel and allowing users that are entitled to tax free diesel to claim a rebate would probably reduce the risk of illegal use - as it stands, I can legally purchase red diesel for my boat or home heating, transfer gallons into my car and there is no paper trail. I have been driving diesel vehicles for much of my life and have never been checked by the roadside. If all fuel was fully taxed at source and a rebate claimed, then surely HMRC would have a more detailed paper trail?

I think they are probably more concerned at the likely cost of administering the system to receive and process the claims for rebates.

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

An interesting thought ..

The principle is to charge VAT on fuel used for leisure?
Wherefore then, those hotel boats cruising up and down the rivers in France Etc?

They are solely for leisure purpose.. although a commercial supply operation?
If we as leisure boat operators have to pay VAT... I think they should also be paying VAT on the fuel..

The people on the cruises pay for the fuel within the cost of the cruise & they pay VAT as part of the cost of their holiday so effectively VAT is charged on the fuel

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

If there was no red & everyone had to reclaim the VAT then that would stop the illegal use on the roads. This is what the Belgians etc are trying to stop.
Problem the govt have is that there would be another tier of VAT or duty to be claimed for businesses ie not the 20% VAT (although there is already more than 1 tier as construction work has 3 tiers zero, 6% & 20%) Plus the claim could be open to fraud. But that is what VAT inspectors are supposed to be on the look out for.
It also makes supply of fuel for domestic heating a problem as householders could not claim back duty as they are not VAT registered
Then there is the small business lobby who are below the VAT threshold who would be unable to claim & a lot of small traders, fishermen, small greenhouse producers etc would be in this sector.

The use of red diesel in private vehicles is rife, by taking the dye out it would make it impossible to police. You point out commercial problems but the illegal use of diesel by theft or simply illegal use by those that could buy and reclaim the VAT, would explode.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

Seems to me that doing away with marked fuel and allowing users that are entitled to tax free diesel to claim a rebate would probably reduce the risk of illegal use - as it stands, I can legally purchase red diesel for my boat or home heating, transfer gallons into my car and there is no paper trail. I have been driving diesel vehicles for much of my life and have never been checked by the roadside. If all fuel was fully taxed at source and a rebate claimed, then surely HMRC would have a more detailed paper trail?

I think they are probably more concerned at the likely cost of administering the system to receive and process the claims for rebates.

It's not people like you that C&E target it's farmers, heavy plant workers and the like.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

It's not people like you that C&E target it's farmers, heavy plant workers and the like.

I think you keep missing the point-----If there was no red diesel everyone would have to pay the vat,and fuel duty when they bought it,then subsequently claim the money back if they were entitled to do so.You would have to fraudulently claim rather than just buy tax free fuel in the first place and would result in less tax evasion I believe.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

I think you keep missing the point-----If there was no red diesel everyone would have to pay the vat,and fuel duty when they bought it,then subsequently claim the money back if they were entitled to do so.You would have to fraudulently claim rather than just buy tax free fuel in the first place and would result in less tax evasion I believe.

Wot about the scoots that nick it and I did say illegal use that includes fraudulent claims which would be rife.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

Wot about the scoots that nick it and I did say illegal use that includes fraudulent claims which would be rife.

I tried google translate on that but it still came back as nonsense.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

I tried google translate on that but it still came back as nonsense.

Scrotes

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

It's not people like you that C&E target it's farmers, heavy plant workers and the like.

That is not entirely true. I am told that HMRC have numerous check points all over the country. One well known one is the Tyne tunnel & they specifically target private vehicles. ( I use the byepass when I go there so cannot confirm !!!)
There is no point targeting farm vehicles or Construction vehicles, they are entitled to use it. Private vehicle users do try to use red & are often caught.
When I operated lorries I used to get random customs checks in my yard about every 2 years. Plus, I seem to recall, that when the vehicles went for annual MOTs there were also random fuel checks at the Purfleet testing centre. But as you suggest , that is heavy commercial, not cars.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

That is not entirely true. I am told that HMRC have numerous check points all over the country. One well known one is the Tyne tunnel & they specifically target private vehicles. ( I use the byepass when I go there so cannot confirm !!!)
There is no point targeting farm vehicles or Construction vehicles, they are entitled to use it. Private vehicle users do try to use red & are often caught.
When I operated lorries I used to get random customs checks in my yard about every 2 years. Plus, I seem to recall, that when the vehicles went for annual MOTs there were also random fuel checks at the Purfleet testing centre. But as you suggest , that is heavy commercial, not cars.

I used to use the Tyne tunnel at least twice a month over several years never saw one nor was stopped I have seen them on the M56 and many times outside my quarries and for that matter inside. It's not the plant or farm vehicles it's the employees road going vehicles they are interested in, one of my contractors employees car was crushed as he was a repeat offender.
Years ago you couldn't go to a county fair or game fair without seeing the excise men dipping Land Rovers

 

[Dan Tribe]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

Not quite the same. Your farmer still needs some white & you have considerably more supply points (each with larger fuel sales than most marinas) available to you than to a yacht

1. My comment wasn't meant to be a serious suggestion, more like what is known as an anology. We pay the rate for derv (unless we lie), but we are given gas oil which is illegal in EC countries. I assume that the marina then passes on the appropriate amount of duty but have no way of knowing that.
2. A marina based motor yacht buys 1000 litres of fuel in August. Do we really believe that he uses 400 litres for heating? I accept that live aboards in winter should be able to use duty free heating oil but they are probably a small proportion of the community.
4. I can't remember ever seeing a fishing boat filling up at my marina or any other. Perhaps they get a better rate elsewhere.

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

4. I can't remember ever seeing a fishing boat filling up at my marina or any other. Perhaps they get a better rate elsewhere.

Fishing boats commonly have tankers deliver to the dockside. But they often still pay a tankage levy to the dock owner.

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

I used to use the Tyne tunnel at least twice a month over several years never saw one nor was stopped

I suggest that you google "hmrc fuel checks at tyne tunnel"
I have also seen comments on another forum re the subject which is what prompted my post

 

[Boz]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

This Airport Chaos may have something to do with the sudden resurgence of Customs checks in Belgium......

From the Times this morning.

"Schengen area States were told to implement EU Regulation 2017/458 that requires enhanced checks on travelers entering and leaving the zone"

This directive came, apparently, back in April, from the European Commission...... the time line seems about right, and just the excuse that Belgium officials could use. The Red Diesel fines may be just a by product?

 

[WF36]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

The RYA says a so-called "common European approach" on the use of red diesel is being discussed next month and, as a result, it has been told that checks are temporarily not being carried out

 

[CCJ]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

The volunteers @ the CA seem to have beaten the professionals @ the
RYA with the news

 

[Daydream believer]

Re: Levington boaters allegedly fined €500 in Belgium for red diesel

The volunteers @ the CA seem to have beaten the professionals @ the
RYA with the news

Probably because the bloke that was dealing with the issue has left &the others are pretty clueless i expect