One MAN engine fails on last day end last trip of our summer holliday’s

[jfm]

there still is the folded canopy against the radar arch that I can take out, gives me about 15cm more width,

and I'm going to advice them to replace the lifting bridle, by a spreader bar, and lifting that with just one cable to the hook,
this gives more room to play with
(all difficult to explain, but you will understand)

and then a assembled engine might go in there.

Ok I see. Yes, a spreader bar, removal of Bimini frame and opening of port side aft deck soft patch looks like it will allow the assembled engine in without touching the passerelle. The guys will have to re-make the SHS/scaffold pole frame, to make it a bit wider, but I guess that is no big deal. Good going!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I'm pleased to confirm that the Guy's gave a confident impression, they knew what they were doing,
It was not the first time they did something like this,
they had a "system" for such a job.:encouragement:

Bart, if you don't mind me asking, who are these guys and how did you find them? And where is the job being done? Are they recognised MAN specialists? You never know when I might need them myself

 

[BartW]

Bart, if you don't mind me asking, who are these guys and how did you find them? And where is the job being done? Are they recognised MAN specialists? You never know when I might need them myself

I asked for a qualified and thrustwurthy MAN service adress in South Croatia or Montenegro, from a MAN service contact I had in Germany,
he pointed me to the MAN distributor in Zagreb,
and they pointed me to Prento Yacht service in Tivat.
The owner Ilko has a good reputation among my neighbours on the quay in PM.
on the Pic's is Ilko, and 3 of his workers,
3 workers from the crane company
my retired friend Lucien, a hobby Carpenter (did a lot of work on BA the last few years)
and finally the guy with the long blond hairs you recognise

the job will be done in Ilko's workshop (next door to PM)
but for cleaning the parts he has to go somewhere else, because the environmental conditions in Tivat are extremely strict,
he has at least one controll a month on that.

Ilko is a certified MAN service center, he was in Germany several times for training,
and only got the license after a few years practice and some references
he has to send a report to MAN from the repair of my engine

He told me that he might have to go to a specialised workshop for a engine blok line boring,
to be decided after complete dismantling and thorrow inspection
He also wants to send the fuel injection pump to a Bosch service center for full testing

Prento Yacht service started many years before the Marina PM came in Tivat,
so not one of these opportunistic new company's

 

[BartW]

next episode in my quest,

the engine blok is (slightly) damaged and the crancshaft is bended
Ilko has found a company who can do the repair on the blok for 800 euro, "welding" and "machining"
but that company doesn't want to give warranty on this repair.
so never assurance about micro crack's, etc...

coincidently by browsing on the net, I have found a used engineblok exactly my model,
for sale here locally very close, from a company specialised in big engine rebuilding.
they give waranty on these parts

I'm waiting for their quotation for a used engineblok, and crankshaft
what is a reasonable price for such a old model engineblok and for a crancshaft ?

I assume that nobody advices repairing that blok if I can get a repairfree block ?
or should I try to find a unused engineblok ?

many thanks for advice !

 

[vas]

Bart, imho your Q generally falls in the how long is a piece of string category...

You're getting possibly a used warrantied block from one co, ship it over to another country so that another machine shop is going to use it to fit the spares from your broken engine.
You expect to get a warrantee from the machine shop doing all the work in Montenegro?

I guess there are a few what ifs in there, and lots of opportunity of ppl passing the blame on others and you sit in the middle and paying all the time.
Is what LS (I think) suggested possible? dyno the engine when fully assembled before going through the hassle of fitting it back in BA?

sorry no idea on used block/crank combo prices (only current engine prices I know is that my 2lt bmw X3 stripped s/h engine will be just under 2K euro, and I don't like it!)

cheers

V.

 

[rbcoomer]

I'd go with the unrepaired block, but agree with Vas in that any issues could fall into the "It's their fault not mine" category.

Some written guarantees on what each would and wouldn't cover would be essential I think.

Could the company supplying the block build and warranty the engine and the other guys fit perhaps?

 

[jfm]

For individual components like engine block I would not care about warranty. If it fails the block is only 3% of the repair ( whole project) cost anyway. So I would just look for the best answer and the " new" block and crank seems better.

If the engine rebuild co is like Tinkicker's business and does this lots and therefore are both expert and time/cost efficient, it might make sense to have them do the whole rebuild as rbcoomber says. Indeed, maybe take out the port engine and get that fully refurbished too? (While you have the patient opened up, you could put a couple of new onans/kohlers in there!)

 

[admillington]

Bart, you have a great boat that you have made perfect so I agree with JFM, sort both engines out now or you will be listening out for every usual noise from the port engine and wondering if there is a problem.

Of course, you will not get your money back but then nor will I get back the deprecation that I lose every year on a newish boat - no sensible person would understand the money that we all spent on boats but then no one has as much fun.

 

[MapisM]

no sensible person would understand the money that we all spent on boats but then no one has as much fun.

Haha, if there's a boat+owner for which this statement is 100% appropriate, that's BA+BartW!

Back to the point, I also would tend to prefer the "new" block.
And since the seller is specialised in rebuilding, it might be worth sending them all the engine bits and have the job done under one roof?
Maybe together with the port engine, as has been suggested....

Though I don't understand jfm suggestion to go for the full monty with the gensets, is there any problem with them?
IIRC, they run just fine, and are also amazingly silent, btw!

 

[BartW]

Haha, if there's a boat+owner for which this statement is 100% appropriate, that's BA+BartW!

I was about to post a similar answer to admillington and I'm not the only one on here with this religion ;-)

Back to the point, I also would tend to prefer the "new" block.
And since the seller is specialised in rebuilding, it might be worth sending them all the engine bits and have the job done under one roof?
Maybe together with the port engine, as has been suggested....

as others have said, I shouldn't take any risc on replacement components, and certainly not make savings on this,
its only a small part of the total repair cost

as to the point of bringing the parts to another rebuilder, I'm sure the Belgium co has the skills to do a perfect job,
http://www.hamofa.be/index.html

but now I gave the project in the hands of Ilko, who appears to have the right and enough experience with similar jobs, he is certified by MAN, and his labourcost is lower then in Belgium.
http://www.yacht-service.me/
It wouldn't be correct to take the job out of his hands at this stage

 

[BartW]

..... maybe take out the port engine and get that fully refurbished too? (While you have the patient opened up, you could put a couple of new onans/kohlers in there!)

we already discussed with Ilko to give the P engine also a thorrow checkup; compression tests, fuelpump test, injector tests, ...
but with that engine in the boat

but your sugestion to replace the genny's (you already gave long ago) I don't see the need for that,
the genny's both run without a problem, (touch wood) have somewhere between 4000-5000hrs on them,
and will have a complete checkup also later this winter.
and they are quite as MapisM confirms, they just have a little more smoke then modern ones.
In case of a big problem, I have a backup, and the genny's have easy acces and can be lifted out easyly (I know now)
is there something I overlook ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

we already discussed with Ilko to give the P engine also a thorrow checkup; compression tests, fuelpump test, injector tests, ...
but with that engine in the boat

I tend to agree with you, Bart. If the port engine is given a clean bill of health, why go to the expense of fixing what isn't broken? I doubt that refurbing both engines will add much to the value of BA in terms of resale value. But I suppose it depends on how long you see yourself keeping BA. If BA is a boat you think you will keep for a long time, then maybe it is worth doing but if you see yourself changing it in a couple of years, then I don't see that its worth it in financial terms

but your sugestion to replace the genny's (you already gave long ago) I don't see the need for that,
the genny's both run without a problem, (touch wood) have somewhere between 4000-5000hrs on them

,
Similar thoughts really. You have 2 gennies so you always have a back up if one fails and if both are declared to be in good order by the technician, why throw them away? 4000-5000 hrs sounds a lot but actually it is not a lot of hours for an industrial engine anyway. As with the engine refurb, I don't see that replacing 1 or both gennies adds much to the value of the boat

 

[Latestarter1]

I was about to post a similar answer to admillington and I'm not the only one on here with this religion ;-)




as others have said, I shouldn't take any risc on replacement components, and certainly not make savings on this,
its only a small part of the total repair cost

as to the point of bringing the parts to another rebuilder, I'm sure the Belgium co has the skills to do a perfect job,
http://www.hamofa.be/index.html

but now I gave the project in the hands of Ilko, who appears to have the right and enough experience with similar jobs, he is certified by MAN, and his labourcost is lower then in Belgium.
http://www.yacht-service.me/
It wouldn't be correct to take the job out of his hands at this stage

Bart,

Hamofa is excellent outfit, have you considered simply sourcing new/re-con block and crank from them and free issue to Ilko if he is happy with that solution, Hamofa will warrant their parts for three months and push them to include consequential damage.

Do not be tempted to obtain block or crank from different sources and do not even consider having crank straightened, it will fail.

As to port engine MAN PLI engines are very injector sensitive, if your repairer prefers to fit MAN replacement injectors let him do it. Forget compression test, it will tell you nothing.

Good luck.

 

[jfm]

Ref generators, I was just throwing in a general comment based on fact they're £15k each or whatever and making a hole in the deck can cost similar. If they're perfectly fine and easily removed then of course there's no sense in replacing them

 

[BartW]

New update and more bad news,
Turns out that most of the piston connecting rods have to be replaced, (so then all 12)
On some, the bearing was melted in its seats, so that the seats of the piston rods are now out of tolerance.
Then Ilko found out that there is much wearing on the liners surface, it doesn’t have any groove pattern in it anymore, its too much polished, so time for replacement.
The pistons, have soft scratches, need to be replaced anyway, when the liners are new.
The gear wheel on the Camshaft is slightly out of centric, 0.4mm while max tolerance is 0.1mm,
a new camshaft is needed aswell.
There are a few abnormal things found inside this engine, and Ilko believes that this has caused the vibration wheel to break, with all the consequeces we know now…..we discussed all possible causes and consequences, but this is of no help today.

Some of the bearings

Pistons with damaged rods

More pistons

The liners, on the darker, non-shiny surface, one can see the original “thin groove” pattern
All gone in the polished shiny part

So all that on top of the bended crankshaft and a damaged engineblock,
New injectors, and a injection pump rebuild.

I’m waiting for the final quotation on parts, but I’m afraid that this is going to be unrealistic for such a old engine.
We have discussed that the Port engine probably needs a rebuild aswell (just liners and pistons on that one) that engine consumed much more oil then the broken engine.

It’s a pitty I’m just too late for a nice found that Jfm pointed me of two MAN 1100Hp 8 cylinders that were for sale in UK, but now sold.

I found another pair V12 MAN engines, newer then mine,
Not the common rail version, but the model just before, so also mechanic,
Similar to the ones I have (LE402), but with two intercoolers, and 2 double turbo’s, (LE409), 1500Hp
With lo hours, and for sale with warranty ! from a known and thrustfull company,
They claim only 250Hrs, (!?!?) approx. 10years old,
I have asked for full details, sr nr, etc... info will come.

Ilko still believes that he can do a good job repairing the old engines, I’l have brand new specs then he claims.
So all in all, I have to spend some big sums very soon,
Question is on what ?

 

[rafiki_]

it sounds like your broken engine is a total loss, needing a completed new block, crank, liners, pistons and more. Your port engine can be rebuilt and you will then have total confidence in it. When buying second hand engines, you will need to have them thoroughly checked to gain a degree of confidence, and should see them running before you go to the cost and trouble of installing in BA. They may be great, but there are many unknowns. A conversation with Laterstarter1 here is the first thing to do, and I'm sure he will help to with some professional advice.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Bart, very sorry to hear this news. Without knowing precise figures and delivery times, its difficult to know what to say. All things being equal, I think the preferable option is to rebuild the existing engines. At least you will know for sure that the engines are in top condition and there will be no issues refitting them. Yes, maybe the other engines you have been offered have only done 250hrs but you don't really know for sure what you are buying. Yes they have a warranty but I guess thats only 12 months. Also whilst in theory they are the same engines, do you know for sure whether all of the existing ancillaries will fit without a problem?

 

[Robg71]

personally, without knowing full costing of either, think I would go for the used engines. especially as you have already said you probably have to strip your good motor.
I would wait until finding full £££ before any decision is remotely on the table...

 

[vas]

looks like we are voting, so i'll place mine as well.

first, imho I think it's better that the engine is practically a total loss, as again imho there's not much pressure to try and "save" it. I mean you're only saving the anchileries (alternators, pumps, intercoolers et al) All main components are shot


i'd go for the s/h ones, and do what is typically done down here, remove the cyl/head and poke inside, measure what you can and check things out. (do the same for the bottom end as well and be 95% sure and be done with...)


sorry that news are not great, but at the end of the day imho it's probably better like that!

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

Bart, very sorry to hear this news.

Absolutely +1 also from my part, B.

Of course, as others said, it's extremely hard to give any suggestions, because the decision is bound to be based on a mix of technical and economic evaluations.

Just to throw in another idea (but take it fwiw, i.e. just a thought), since you are now considering to rebuild also the other engine:
Based on your usage of BA, with engines capable of pushing her at 25 knots she's actually a bit overpowered, sort of.
I mean, yeah, I know that most modern planing boats are capable of 30+ kts, but let's be realistic - as I know you are.
In fact, IIRC, you told me that (particularly after fitting the stabs) you use BA mostly at 10 kts, with some odd bits made at 18-20 if and when in a hurry, or just for fun.
Which is fine, and obviously the original BA engines were perfectly capable to deliver that.

But the power requirement grows in an exponential rather than linear fashion with speed.
So, out of a thousand or so HPs each side, you might well be using the last couple of hundreds just to reach 25 rather than 22 or 23 knots.
Besides, there is a weight advantage with smaller engines, and that works the other way round - i.e. increasing rather than reducing speed.
Bottom line, what I'm trying to say is that by repowering with V10 rather than V12 MANs, you would still be able to use BA exactly as you did so far, possibly loosing just a couple of knots wot, if that.

And I'm mentioning the MAN V10 just because I suppose it might be easier to install and match them with the existing gearboxes etc.
But of course, once you are going into a full repowering project, you might as well consider also other brands/types of engines.
Just as an example, the more powerful version of the Cat C18 can actually deliver even more HPs than your V12 MANs, with just 18 liters and 6 inline cylinders (imagine the space gain in your e/r!).

Unfortunately, I'm not suggesting this because I think that MAN V10 or Cat C18 can be bought for peanuts.
If you find any of these engines in good conditions, rebuilt by a reputable company, etc., they might well cost as much as comparably good MAN V12.
Otoh, if you don't mind the risk of loosing just a little bit of max speed, you would at least open up a much wider range of choices.

I'd be interested to hear also the view of the forum engine experts on this idea, they surely are more entitled than myself to say if it makes sense or not.
And if not, I'll gladly swallow this whole post!

All the very best anyway for finding a viable option, and put it in place successfully before 2015 season!