One for the engineers.

Sybarite · 21 Mar 2004

In one of my many DOG moments (delusions of grandeur) and in anticipation of the next eurolottery win, I have dreamt about an aeroplane in order to get to my boat. One that attracts me is an Austrian 4 seater called a Diamond Star DA 40. The interest is that they have just introduced the first production diesel powered plane (that does approx. 30 mpg at 150knts cruising speed - soon it will be the only way to get speed kicks). However they say that the engine, which is an adapted Mercedes A-class 1.7l car engine, runs equally well on either normal car diesel or on Jet-A1 kerosene. The latter costs about 40p per litre.

http://www.centurion-engines.com/index.htm

Would an ordinary boat diesel also run on Jet A1?
Are these prices intended to increase at the same time as red diesel?

John

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kindredspirit · 21 Mar 2004

You'll have to join <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.begleys.com/kevin/weather.htm>Weather & other useful links for Irish waters.

peterb · 21 Mar 2004

It's hardly the first production diesel powered plane. Quite a number of the Luftwaffe types with which Germany started the war in 1939 used diesels. The Junkers Ju86K1 was in use from 1935, and that's nearly 70 years ago; I think the Dornier Do18K1 goes back even further. Both used Junkers Jumo 205 engines.

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anchorhandler · 21 Mar 2004

"Would an ordinary boat diesel also run on Jet A1?"

Not sure as to what Jet A1's properties are....
to be able to burn a fuel in a diesel engine, you (somewhat simplisticly) have to look at 2 things
1)...The compression ration of the engine in question as this will give you a good idea what the maximum theoretical air temperature reached in the cylinder will be (greater the compression ratio, the higher the temperature)
2)...The cetane value of the fuel and more importantly the 'auto-ignition' temperature of the fuel under certain conditions. This is a measure of when and at what temperature the fuel will auto ignite without external ignition source. (diesel has a high flash point ie: the temperature at which diesel will release flammable vapors (around 125degreesF) but a relatively low auto-ignition temperature. (around 445degreesF)
Incidentally, unleaded fuel has a flash-point of around 35 degreesF and a auto-ignition temp of around 560degreesF)

This is putting it very simply since many other factors influence the scenario.

Basically, the Mercedes engine in question may have additional glow/igniter plugs fitted to help ignite the JetA1...but as i mentioned previously, i'm not too up to date as to the the properties of JetA1 but i would be very surprised if you could devise a cost effective injection/ignition system for 'leisure' marine use.

LNG/LPG is the way to go (readily available). Many commercial diesel manufacturers are currently trialing LNG powered diesels.

hope this helps
Simon

<hr width=100% size=1>I'v got 2 ears.2 eyes and 1 mouth....if only i could use them in that proportion!

Moose · 22 Mar 2004

There are various types of Jet fuel, JET A, JET A1, TS1, JP5 e.t.c They are all "rubbish" fuels and I would not run my diesel on them!

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Sybarite · 22 Mar 2004

I think the one that was being referred to was Jet A1. The articles indicate that the motor will accept either diesel or Jet A1 without any adaptation - they can even be mixed. The Mercedes motors are adapted by Thielert but I have no idea how or to what extent.

However the investment in any aircraft motor - even if it is an adapted car engine - and the safety considerations must be such that I am sure the decision to use Jet A1 would not be taken lightly. They do however indicate that the motors are not overhauled after 2000 hours as happens to normal aero engines but are simply replaced.

John

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Sybarite · 22 Mar 2004

My understanding is that diesel fuel lubrication is vital for the injection pumps because of the very fine tolerances ( NB one should never let a diesel run out of fuel as this can result in costly repairs ) .

John

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snowleopard · 22 Mar 2004

taxation

you will still be able to buy red diesel, it will just be illegal to use it in a boat just as it is in a car today. likewise any other type of untaxed or low-tax fuel.

as for LPG etc. a cynic would say that as soon as a substantial number of people have comitted themselves to the expense of conversion and are locked in, they will whack on tax at the same level as petrol, you've only to look at car diesel for proof!

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merlin1 · 22 Mar 2004

Many industrial gas turbines (jet engines driving generators, compressors etc) run on diesel. Like their airborne cousins they will also run on jet/kerosene fuel.

If you can buy the small quantities of kerosene you would require for your boat, you have an interesting concept.

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anchorhandler · 22 Mar 2004

Just looked up some of the properties of JetA1....

The energy released when burning 1 litre of JetA1 = 36.8 Millijoules
The energy released when burning 1 litre of red diesel = 40 Millijoules

In other words, JetA1 has a lower cetane rating (not as combustible) as red diesel.
This would bean that if you overcame the lubricity diference by adding a lubricator to your JetA1 such as vegetable oil, your diesel engine would still be 8% less efficient per litre of fuel used than if you were running it on red diesel.
Not to mention the emmision/combustion problems that would be encountered by doing this which would also have an effect on the efficiency.

If anyone is interested, LPG only releases 25 millijoules per litre meaning a drop of 38% compared to red diesel............ouch!

Simon

<hr width=100% size=1>I'v got 2 ears.2 eyes and 1 mouth....if only i could use them in that proportion!

peterb · 22 Mar 2004

Should that be megajoules? A millijoule is a thousandth of a watt for 1 second. 40 millijoules doesn't sound much for a litre of fuel.

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anchorhandler · 23 Mar 2004

Just as i figured no one would spot my "deliberate" mistake........
Your correct, it should be Megajoules not millijoules.
Thanks
Simon

<hr width=100% size=1>I'v got 2 ears.2 eyes and 1 mouth....if only i could use them in that proportion!

tcm · 23 Mar 2004

Re: Bad idea

1. You already have enough dodgy might-work equipment if you have a boat

2. It's not quicker: by the time youhave ponced about checking the plane, filling with fuel. filing flight plans blah blah you could be in an ordinary plane.

3. No drinking for 24hours before driving a plane else prison.

4. For moderate lottery winners, use a private plane. Luxaviation cover you area and there must be loads of others. Also ,they will cary your bags and do all the ten mary foxtrot barbecue garbage whilst you have some nice fizz in the back. AAnd on the way home, you just get on the plane.

5. If you do own a plane, you needs lots of quals before getting even close to being abel to go in any weather. Plus doing it every fortnight minimum, and if you get it wrong, everyone dies. I couldn't be arsed with it and wifey did the qualification which was a bit scary, ahem.

6. There's not much social life amongst plane people. No sitting in the bar of course, they just turn up to the airfield and bog off.

7. You can't spanner the engines at all, no sir.

8. To go fast, you need a pressurised plane to get above the weather, else the whole flight is like the nasty bit of a comercial jet flight bang cruchy groog. That means oodles of loot, and de-icing etc etc.

9. None of the above applies if you already have a plane, love flying and get out every evening or more to drone around the sky. Buy something old and very saleable , big names like piper, cessna etc.

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Jacket · 23 Mar 2004

Re: Bad idea

<6. There's not much social life amongst plane people.>

Then why am I sitting here with a hangover after a night at the airfield clubhouse bar?

Yep, flying makes no financial sense, but then neither does sailing, and both are just as fun.

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anchorhandler · 23 Mar 2004

Re: Bad idea

I always go on the principle "If it fly's, Floats or F***'s....it'l probably be cheaper to rent it!!!"

Simon

<hr width=100% size=1>I'v got 2 ears.2 eyes and 1 mouth....if only i could use them in that proportion!

Sybarite · 24 Mar 2004

Re: Bad idea

Thanks for the encouragement. Anyway the eurolottery hasn't happened yet so it's basically the proverbial pipedream. When you live more than 300 miles from your boat as I do, then maybe theoretically it would be a time saver.
Incidentally the sale of the new generation of composite planes is rapidly overhauling the traditional Cessna's and Pipers and the hourly running costs (with diesel) are a fraction of the traditional costs.

The three emerging marques are Diamond, Cirrus and Lancair. (This latter make has brought out a turbine 750hp 4 seater with a cruising speeed of 375mph - with pressurized option - in kit form for less than $250k).

A few years ago I was corporate secretary of firm which acquired a couple of GA aircraft maintenance companies and I used to covet the planes being serviced -admiring their form in the same way as I can admire a pretty boat.

John

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tcm · 24 Mar 2004

Re: ooh , well then maybe

ooh 250k is a bit more like it. Mind you, it'd still be the wife driving, erk.

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Sybarite · 24 Mar 2004

Re: ooh , well then maybe

The diesel version of the Diamond is less than $200k. They also have a twin diesel 4 seater with 180 - 200knt cruising speed and up to 1500 miles range for approx $360k and 30 l/hr consumption.

I can understand about the wife driving but an alternative is the Cirrus. It has a parachute incorporated ie the the parachute lowers the whole plane in case of problems.

John

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Sybarite on 24/03/2004 11:20 (server time).</FONT></P>

ParaHandy · 24 Mar 2004

runs on petrol AND on water .. 4 seater .. look no further john ...

Jacket · 24 Mar 2004

Re: ooh , well then maybe

http://www.ximangousa.com/

Only two seats, but a snip at 110k, soars better than the dedicated gliders I'm flying just now, and yet still has enough performance to make a respectable tourer.

"Only" 110k. Ah well, I can dream, can't I?

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One for the engineers.

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