On the subject of going aground un Brightlingsea,

[DanTribe]

After reading some of these replies, my comment about "a bit of consideration from both camps" seems a forlorn hope.

 

[Bru]

Thank you kind Sir ; please comment and give your arguments or reasons why why points you find disagreement with

Col Regs were drawn up, for avoiding collisions when at Sea around our World with Shipping comming frrom different countries ; so an agreed Policy and Rules has been drawn up = Col Regs , not up a Creek in Essex or anywhere else for that matter .

From my research that RYA is partly to blame for the misunderstanding in mainly /soley RYA trained persons about the Col Regs

but please comment as you think fit ? thank you

Different and specific rules apply in Racing to open Water Navigation especially in closed waters , like Essex Rivers and Harbours

Methinks you are labouring under a dangerous misapprehension

Colregs apply to to the high seas and "all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels" (to quote the very first paragraph of the regulations

So Colregs most certainly *do* apply to Essex creeks and harbours

Local regulations can supplement Colregs and on occasion even vary them but any special rules must conform as closely as possible to the regulations

And, as I pointed out quite forcefully on one occasion after an encounter with two racing yachts, the Racing Rules have absolutely zero relevance with regard to anybody not taking part in the racing*. In an encounter between a vessel which is racing and one which is not Colregs apply

All that said, I would never intentionally impede a race if I could reasonably avoid doing so. However, when, for example (as happened to me) you're batting down river with a couple of knots of ebb tide up the chuff and a tidal bar to clear at the river entrance you can't hang around forever waiting for several dozen dingies of various types to finish zooming around several different courses!

(I started my sailing "career" racing dingies, I haven't forgotten everything, and I was damned if i could work out what was what)

Having to make my way down the middle of the river with enough way on to maintain steerage was, short of anchoring and missing the tide, my only option. To be fair, I heard no complaints. But I'd frankly rather not have found myself in the middle of that mess

* The loud voiced helm of one of two yachts rapidly overhauling me from eastern, one on each quarter and clearly intent on passing me on both sides, seemed to think I should somehow have got out of their way. As the vessel being overtaken, I was of course obliged to stand on, not that I realistically had any other option! His condescending shout of "we are racing you know", as if racing have him some special God given rights, got a reply of "so flipping (!) what? I'm cruising"

 

[Scotsailor]

When we started sailing out of Woodbridge, we would often encounter races going across the channel at Woodbridge and in Waldringfield. As relative newbies, it was still fairly obvious to slowdown and pick our way through carefully. Everyone was respectful of each other.

That is what I would do as well. However that isn’t the situation here, as I understand it. In this situation the cruising yacht piloting his craft is being asked to wait. Although the dinghy race hasn’t even started!

 

[ianc1200]

I remember doing the same just below Woodbridge in our vintage motor cruiser. Loads of youngsters and supervising guys in ribs. However in doing what we would do on the upper Thames, ie head towards the stern and go behind a dinghy was frustrated several times when doing this, the young lady promptly went about and headed back into us. This happened a few times until we eventually got clear of her. we then had a visit from the rib and expected a telling off, but he was full of apologies and said he would tell her not to do that in future. I do sympathise for those running Cadet or youth training weeks etc it can't be easy.

 

[Scotsailor]

I remember doing the same just below Woodbridge in our vintage motor cruiser. Loads of youngsters and supervising guys in ribs. However in doing what we would do on the upper Thames, ie head towards the stern and go behind a dinghy was frustrated several times when doing this, the young lady promptly went about and headed back into us. This happened a few times until we eventually got clear of her. we then had a visit from the rib and expected a telling off, but he was full of apologies and said he would tell her not to do that in future. I do sympathise for those running Cadet or youth training weeks etc it can't be easy.

In this case the race hadn’t even started. I would tell the jobsworth to do one

 

[Pye_End]

Several years ago I was going up to Gravelines, with a wall of Oppies in front, half way up the channel. No chance of avoiding 'the fleet' - some very young. Sat as far to std. as felt comfortable and just gently waded through, as I and others would in any similar situation. The French safety boats did a bit of gathering of their flock to ensure they were safe, and all was well. No words spoken, no ill feeling, just waves and smiles. Perhaps abroad they are a bit more 'live and let live'? To expect to completely block a main channel perhaps a little extreme.

 

[Scotsailor]

Several years ago I was going up to Gravelines, with a wall of Oppies in front, half way up the channel. No chance of avoiding 'the fleet' - some very young. Sat as far to std. as felt comfortable and just gently waded through, as I and others would in any similar situation. The French safety boats did a bit of gathering of their flock to ensure they were safe, and all was well. No words spoken, no ill feeling, just waves and smiles. Perhaps abroad they are a bit more 'live and let live'? To expect to completely block a main channel perhaps a little extreme.

In this case the race hadn’t even started

 

[Behome]

My understanding has always been that Colregs apply and that passing craft in stand on position, or in a narrow channel were considered as “hazards of navigation” for the racers.
However, I always try to be polite and try to avoid impeding racers, in particular if they are youngsters in small dinghies. This politeness is not always reciprocate by their elders, especially amongst the cruiser racer fraternity.

 

[jimi]

I do wish race officers would not set courses crossing busy fairways . Coll regs are all very well but are designed for one to one situations not one to many! Today coming down the Orwell we had a potentially difficult situation where the race officer had set a port channel marker as a mark. There was no room out the channel to go to avoid the fleet because of moored boats. I was on starboard on a very broad reach and potentially could have been the give way windward boat to a fleet . I managed to thread but it could have been impossible to give way to all or to avoid. Very bad course planning by the race officer imho.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Methinks you are labouring under a dangerous misapprehension

Colregs apply to to the high seas and "all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels" (to quote the very first paragraph of the regulations

So Colregs most certainly *do* apply to Essex creeks and harbours

Local regulations can supplement Colregs and on occasion even vary them but any special rules must conform as closely as possible to the regulations

And, as I pointed out quite forcefully on one occasion after an encounter with two racing yachts, the Racing Rules have absolutely zero relevance with regard to anybody not taking part in the racing*. In an encounter between a vessel which is racing and one which is not Colregs apply

Well might offer the comment on your comment that Local Regulations OVERIDE Col Regs not suppliment them

Cannot see how a rule that contradicts or overides another is suplimenting it , its one or the other , so Local is King ?

Do you recall that infamous incident near Southampton when a Yacht whilst racing adorned his rigging on a Vessels anchor whilst the Vessel was manouvering to Starboard in the Main Channel ; very costly to the Yacht both Financially and Personnaly

You do in my opinion correctly state that craft whilst racing cannot depend upon the Racing Rules overiding the Col Regs or the Local rules

What might be better taught is that Racing Courses should NOT use Navigational aids or Bouys are turning points at all ; race course officers should poss know better that that

 

[Capt Popeye]

My understanding has always been that Colregs apply and that passing craft in stand on position, or in a narrow channel were considered as “hazards of navigation” for the racers.
However, I always try to be polite and try to avoid impeding racers, in particular if they are youngsters in small dinghies. This politeness is not always reciprocate by their elders, especially amongst the cruiser racer fraternity.

Do you make use of your Crafts Horn when approaching a mele of dinghys on these occasions ?

Might suggest that the Horn is less confrontational than Verbal confrontation in these sittuations !

 

[johnalison]

Do you make use of your Crafts Horn when approaching a mele of dinghys on these occasions ?

Might suggest that the Horn is less confrontational than Verbal confrontation in these sittuations !

I’m not so sure about that. I can see myself being startled by the sounding of a horn and viewing it as a demanding signal, as with car horns. Also think it unlikely that dinghy sailors will know the meanings of sound signals, if you were also proposing to use them.

As for using navigation buoys, although undesirable in some situations, it is often inevitable. Dinghy clubs mostly have their own marks outside channels but cruiser race clubs can’t be expected to deploy or maintain marks at sea, except for some regattas. For the most part I have never found this to be a problem, except for the occasion when I was racing on the Blackwater and when we got to Thirslet we discovered that another club was using the same buoy - but in the opposite direction.

 

[Concerto]

I can still remember my first visit to Brightlingsea in 1965. As we entered, very much as novices, a larger yacht decided to slip its mooring and turn round in front of us. It caused us some problems and when my father shouted over, all they said was "We are bigger than you". That still basically sums up lots of situations in close quarters, the smaller craft should keep clear. It does not matter it they are racing, larger craft do not move as quickly.

Several years ago I was beating singehanded up the Medway on port tack and 3 Wayfarer dinghies were coming down under spinnaker. I held my course and passed them close to windward. The 3rd one complained, "You do realise we are racing". My simple retort was "So am I. I have no ensign but have a class flag on the backstay. Learn your flags."

 

[Capt Popeye]

Following the usefull postings about this subject , I am of the very firm opinion that the Dinghy Sailing fraternity do not have much of a clue about 'life afloat' outside of them RYA Racing Rules , even then its complicated so maybe its every Racing Dinghy to just keep themselves safe and beware Larger Craft at their peril !

Guess that the Clubs that organise (used in the hope of) Dinghy Racing also teach their offspring about the needs and requirements of 'other craft' ; especially the use of Horns, Flags , Burning Tar Drums , etc etc ; seems that either the RYA is at fault here , ie not teaching their teachers the importance of this requirement or the fault of RYA qualified teacher /instructors in passin on this information ?

Are there any RYA Dinghy instructors on these pages who could comment ? thanks CP

 

[TimfromMersea]

Whilst it’s at least convenient to blame the RYA for this situation, basic ColRegs have been part of the RYA courses for many years. That of course doesn’t include ‘racing boats always have right of way’ , because they don’t, but in the spirit of us all enjoying the wonderful sport of sailing, it is polite for cruising sailors to make way for racing boats. The racer might be you next week.

Some cruisers have never raced dinghies, or indeed raced at all, and some racers have never sailed a boat where if you go aground you can’t just push the board up. Some organisers of dinghy sailing also seem utterly oblivious to the perils of setting their courses at right angles across a main channel into a harbour, when there is plenty of other water available. The answer, as always, is give and take and everyone being more conscious of each other - maybe a forlorn hope.

Mind you, I did enjoy the time when I was racing my Beneteau cruiser up the Blackwater as part of the Dabchicks SC Heybridge Pursuit Race, and I called ‘starboard’ on a dinghy, who shouted angrily back ‘I’m racing!’ to which the only reply was ‘so am I, and I’m on starboard’………

 

[Cobra]

Having raced competitively for about 40 years, I totally get the "They are not racing, they should get out of my way" mentality that seems to exist amongst a lot of the dinghy racing fraternity. Now, having been sailing cruisers for some 15 years I can also understand the "Why should I get out of their way, I have as much right to be on this bit of water as them" that seems to prevail with a number of cruising sailors.

My approach has always been one of if I have right of way and it is safe to stand on and my actions are only affecting one dinghy who is not in any obvious immediate competition, then I will stand on and they can either tack or go around me...HOWEVER if it is a group of two or three boats all very close together and obviously having a good tussle, what harm me either easing sheets, altering course or putting a tack in?

All for a peaceful Life!

 

[DanTribe]

Mind you, I did enjoy the time when I was racing my Beneteau cruiser up the Blackwater as part of the Dabchicks SC Heybridge Pursuit Race, and I called ‘starboard’ on a dinghy, who shouted angrily back ‘I’m racing!’ to which the only reply was ‘so am I, and I’m on starboard’………

I was racing my UFO in a club event when we came to a windward mark at the same time as an Oppie race. Just before we got to the lay line, there was a hail,
"starboard Grandpa!". Very little room, we had to slam tack and gybe out of it, lost many places.
And I had paid for her Optimist!

 

[johnalison]

Having raced competitively for about 40 years, I totally get the "They are not racing, they should get out of my way" mentality that seems to exist amongst a lot of the dinghy racing fraternity. Now, having been sailing cruisers for some 15 years I can also understand the "Why should I get out of their way, I have as much right to be on this bit of water as them" that seems to prevail with a number of cruising sailors.

My approach has always been one of if I have right of way and it is safe to stand on and my actions are only affecting one dinghy who is not in any obvious immediate competition, then I will stand on and they can either tack or go around me...HOWEVER if it is a group of two or three boats all very close together and obviously having a good tussle, what harm me either easing sheets, altering course or putting a tack in?

All for a peaceful Life!

It is possible that using the term 'right of way' will get you excluded from all polite company for all eternity but I think there is no harm in it when used as a shorthand for 'stand on vessel', providing all parties know what is meant.

It is a long time since I was involved in dinghy racing, and then almost entirely inland. On the few occasions when I sailed in the Crouch I don't think that I ever gave a thought to the needs of cruising sailors, if only because there weren't any, in the early '60s. I can well imagine that current dinghy sailors will often approach their sailing with the same closed mindset. They will mostly be on the water in large groups, and their attention will be confined to this group's activities. As I see it, it is the responsibilty of the clubs organising racing to ensure that their members and visitors are aware of the needs of different users of the water and that the 'racers have right of way' mentality is ruled out.

 

[Bru]

Well might offer the comment on your comment that Local Regulations OVERIDE Col Regs not suppliment them

Cannot see how a rule that contradicts or overides another is suplimenting it , its one or the other , so Local is King ?

I said, quite carefully, that per the Colregs local regulations can vary the main regulations. Vary (in my mental dictionary) includes override. However, it is worth remembering that the Colregs stipulate that any local variations must adhere as closely as possible to the Colregs

So, to offer an extreme example, a local regulation that stipulated that port tack had priority over starboard simply wouldn't fly. But one that says that the chain ferry has right of way over all other vessels is clearly sensible

Do you recall that infamous incident near Southampton when a Yacht whilst racing adorned his rigging on a Vessels anchor whilst the Vessel was manouvering to Starboard in the Main Channel ; very costly to the Yacht both Financially and Personnaly

That actually didn't need any special rules, the twonk in charge of the yacht was in clear breach of the standard Colregs. That he also busted several local regulations was merely the icing on the cake

You do in my opinion correctly state that craft whilst racing cannot depend upon the Racing Rules overiding the Col Regs or the Local rules

I think it is important to be very clear about this - "cannot depend on the racing rules" is ambiguous. It has a sort of wooly implication that racing rules might apply to some undefined extent. The clear statement is that racing rules do not apply at all, ever, in an encounter between a vessel which is racing and one which is not

This distinction is important because I'm certain that some racers do not understand it (because they told me so in the bar later!)

 

[WF36]

I called ‘starboard’ on a dinghy, who shouted angrily back ‘I’m racing!’ to which the only reply was ‘so am I, and I’m on starboard’………

haha, Had exactly the same happen to me in my Cruiser with a well known Stella a few years back!