On the subject of going aground un Brightlingsea,

[Bru]

It is possible that using the term 'right of way' will get you excluded from all polite company for all eternity but I think there is no harm in it when used as a shorthand for 'stand on vessel', providing all parties know what is meant.

I beg to differ (sorry )

I think it is essential not to use "right of way" as a "shorthand" for "stand on vessel"

Its not much shorter anyway and there is a world of difference between being the stand on vessel, which most emphatically does not infer any "right of way" and actually having a right of way over other vessels.

 

[jimi]

In the situation when you are the give way vessel under CR and no matter what you do , you will be in conflict with one of the dinghies now surrounding you in the fairway after their fleet had tacked round a starboard buoy a minute ago and are now heading across the narrow channel for the windward mark , a port channel marker . Immediately outside the channel are moorings . What would the panel do? I stood on as under CR stand on vessels are obliged to hold their course and speed and their rounding of the first mark to cross the narrow channel meant they had not. done so. Unless one were telepathic or knew the course how the frig was any one expected to knw where they were going to round the mark and cross the channel. IMHO the race officer is the one at fault, not the dinghy racers.

 

[Leighb]

haha, Had exactly the same happen to me in my Cruiser with a well known Stella a few years back!

Not dissimilar happened to a friend who was racing and catching up the back marker of a “faster” class. He was hailed “We are racing” his reply “So am I, and what’s more I started 10 minutes after you!”

 

[DanTribe]

We had the "we are racing" hail on the Crouch yesterday. Broad reaching on starboard going downriver,we bore way to pass a port tack boat beating so as to pass to leeward. We were several boat lengths clear but still got the shout. Why is it usually the tail end charlies who need to get vocal?

 

[Capt Popeye]

I beg to differ (sorry )

I think it is essential not to use "right of way" as a "shorthand" for "stand on vessel"

Its not much shorter anyway and there is a world of difference between being the stand on vessel, which most emphatically does not infer any "right of way" and actually having a right of way over other vessels.

Well in your understanding of English Prose maybe not ; but , if a vessel has the rights over other vessels due to its Draught , relative wind direction , bigger than others , so it is required to Stand On its course letting all others to take avoiding actions tis understandable that they have a right of way over the other craft ; so the term Stand On is in fact giving the instruction to all others to keep clear ; only I might suggest to those whom got there main tuition and Masters from the RYA cannot see that ?

Might suggest that the RYA have a lot to answer for with the present 'wooly thinking' amoungst many Dinghy and Cruising folk ; clearly the term 'right of way' is more understandable in modern multicultural Britain especially when out there on the water ?

 

[Bru]

Well in your understanding of English Prose maybe not ; but , if a vessel has the rights over other vessels due to its Draught , relative wind direction , bigger than others , so it is required to Stand On its course letting all others to take avoiding actions tis understandable that they have a right of way over the other craft ; so the term Stand On is in fact giving the instruction to all others to keep clear ; only I might suggest to those whom got there main tuition and Masters from the RYA cannot see that ?

Nothing to do with understanding prose and everything to do with understanding the Colregs

Firstly, no vessel ever has "rights" over another vessel. *

Being stand on is NOT a right. It IS an obligation.

Being the vessel required to manoeuvre is not a right, it is an obligation

A vessel constrained by its draught is obliged to indicate that it is such. Other vessels are obliged to remain clear of that vessel

Etc.

Understanding these two critical points is key to understanding Colregs - Colregs does not infer rights, Colregs imposes obligations. Once you've grasped that, the regulations become a lot clearer (and this misunderstanding about "rights" is at the heart and soul of virtually every misunderstanding about the Colregs IMO. Sadly, far too many people talk about "right of way" or "rights", I've even heard RYA instructors do so)

* You will not find the term "rights" nor any mention of "right of way" anywhere in the regulations. I just checked to be on the safe side! Actually you will find "rights" on every single damn page ... in the footer where it says "Copyright, all rights reserved"!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Well in your understanding of English Prose maybe not ; but , if a vessel has the rights over other vessels due to its Draught , relative wind direction , bigger than others , so it is required to Stand On its course letting all others to take avoiding actions tis understandable that they have a right of way over the other craft ; so the term Stand On is in fact giving the instruction to all others to keep clear ; only I might suggest to those whom got there main tuition and Masters from the RYA cannot see that ?

Might suggest that the RYA have a lot to answer for with the present 'wooly thinking' amoungst many Dinghy and Cruising folk ; clearly the term 'right of way' is more understandable in modern multicultural Britain especially when out there on the water ?

No one has "right of way" because the ColRegs place the onus for avoiding collision equally on all parties. If the "give way" vessel does not behave correctly, the "stand-on" vessel then has an obligation to take action to avoid a collision, or at least mitigate the result. That's why court judgements very rarely allocate blame entirely to one vessel or the other; at the end of the day, BOTH have the obligation to avoid a collision. Unless the "stand-on" vessel can clearly demonstrate that it did all that was humanly possible to avoid the collision, it is at least partly to blame. So, if you can avoid a vessel that you believe to be the "give-way" vessel but do not do so in a timely manner once it is clear that the "give-way" vessel is not going to take action, you are obliged to do so, and if you don't, you are also at fault. This is not a "right of way" as understood by most people; for example, a pedestrian stepping onto a zebra crossing has right of way over traffic on the road, and vehicles are obliged to give way; if you hit a pedestrian on a zebra crossing, you are in the wrong, full-stop. If it were analogous to the ColRegs, the pedestrian would be equally to blame if they saw a vehicle approaching that for whatever reason looked as if it wouldn't stop. Of course, we all behave in the second way, and take care on zebra crossings! But a reckless driver who fails to stop for a person on a zebra crossing is at fault automatically, for not having taken the presence of the zebra crossing into account, whether or not the pedestrian behaved cautiously.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I beg to differ (sorry )

I think it is essential not to use "right of way" as a "shorthand" for "stand on vessel"

Its not much shorter anyway and there is a world of difference between being the stand on vessel, which most emphatically does not infer any "right of way" and actually having a right of way over other vessels.

Well being expected to 'stand on' when the skipper has other intentions can be a problem, for sure

Understood that the Southampton incident was partly due to the fact that the Large Ship was manouvering and starting to turn to Starboard , into the Southampton Straight , wheras the channel diverged into two well used navigations and as the Large Ship was later than expected making its turn the Yacht skipper made an assumption that the Lage Vessel would Stand On and not be turning Starboard , he was quite wrong .

Being expected to 'stand on' can cause many confusings between other craft skippers in the close area. Of course the Ship should or could have used its Horn /Hooter to signify it was changing course , to make a turn to Starboard ; guess that being expected to 'stand on' can be an assumption poss only correct when meeting in open waters without restrictions to Air and Water Draught on the other vessel, or indeed both vessels in the vicinity .

I guess that the other vessel has 'right of way' puts the onus of the other vessels to be wary and be prepared to change or alter course or indeed 'tread water' until cartain that the safest course is set ?

Its quite normal for a smaller vessel to alter its course in an attempt to advert a collision even when the smaller vessel is technically the 'stand on vessel' , the course altering might take place at many miles away if radar is being used .

A lot depends upon the expanse of Water around the vessels , if in open sea then there is usually enough sea room to make sucessive alterations to course all of which can be read by the other Vessels involved.

I did some time on the water with a Sea School and one particular Skipper , of a motor vessel , always attemped to change course when approaching another vessel so that we passed each other on the correct side , even when we were a way away from each other width wise in the River .

 

[Bru]

I did some time on the water with a Sea School and one particular Skipper , of a motor vessel , always attemped to change course when approaching another vessel so that we passed each other on the correct side , even when we were a way away from each other width wise in the River .

Happened to me inbound into the Crouch from the South. An outbound mobo, who subsequently turned North to cross the Spitway, insisted on coming right across the channel to pass me on the correct side even though we were at least four or five cables apart! So I then had to make the opposite manoeuvre the other way. Grrr! Hey ho, nobody drowned

Back to the Solent collision, it's really not a great example to hold up in a discussion of Colregs because the simple fact is that the yacht skipper pushed his luck WAY too close to a large vessel by any sensible standards. It's really actually totally irrelevant which vessel was stand on, which was or was not constrained by what, who did or did not make what signals ... no sensible yacht skipper should ever have attempted, racing or not, to pass that close ahead of a moving ship (and nor should any sensible skipper put his or her self into a situation where there is no escape if another vessel doesn't do what you assume it is going to do)

As an eleven year old school kid being taught the basics of sailing (which was rather dull actually as I had my own precious, now sadly lost, copy of Knights!) one of the very first things that was drummed into us, racing or not (and it was school sports so we were expected to race) was safety first and foremost. And any even vaguely unsafe or unseamanlike behaviour on the water would get you disqualified quicker than blink (with the attendant risk, if you transgressed too often, of having to play bloody cricket on a summer Wednesday afternoon instead!)

 

[Pye_End]

There is a huge difference between facing a single stand-on / give-way situation, and approaching a fleet straddled across the channel. Must be a bit like navigating a big ship into Southampton with a yacht race going on - it gets to a point where avoiding one correctly means not being avoiding a different boat, according to the regs. The obligation of the stand on vessel to then give way becomes necessary. Best off with threading a race fleet is sometimes not to over-think the COLREGS. Dinghies often don't seem to have an understanding of COLREGS anyhow, and possibly may come under the 'well they aren't actually passage making so therefore not navigating' that jet skis seem to enjoy. There is really not much water to play with at Brightlingsea, so it would be expected to there to be some give and take amongst the racing fleet (presumably some of the legal responsibility lie with the organisers?).

 

[PeterWright]

In this case the race hadn’t even started. I would tell the jobsworth to do one

May I suggest that you take a little time to understand the way a sailing race starts before trumpeting over and over that the race hadn't even started? You will soon learn that the two minutes before the start gun are probably the most competitive part of the race with all competing boats under the racing rules and jostling to get the best start. When a fleet of youngsters are undertaking this, it is hardly onerous for a larger yacht, whether motor or sail. to wait a couple of minutes for the start to happen, after which the first leg will become clear for the larger vessel to picjk their way through. Not part of the colregs but just consideration for other water users.

Even Brightlingsea is not so narrow that I can't turn round and head slowly back up channel for a minute or two turning again when I hear the start gun, so being far enough from the fleet to work out a strategy for getting through them with minimum risk and minimum interference. I accept it will not always be possible to avoid interfering with every boat in the fleet, but I feel it's just polite to minimise interference with others' pleasure in using the water.

I feel that just standing on regardless is the beginning of the slippery slope which ends with jetskis doing sharp turns near anchored vessels to shower the occupants with spray - Ill considered, even though not in breach of the colregs.

I have been a RYA dinghy instructor for decades and a cruising yachtsman for even longer, so I feel I understand both sides of the issue. The RYA does teach the importance of avoiding collisions with all craft but does not teach either the colregs or the racing rules to beginners, saving that for those who have at least learned to control their boat properly. However, as Bru experienced at school all those years ago, a dinghy instructor is expected to train their students from level 1 to avoid collisions and put safety above everything else.

Peter.

 

[Bru]

For me, there would be a world of difference between the safety boat asking

"the race is about to start in a couple of minutes, would you mind awfully hanging back until they're off?"

and

"we're starting a race, wait here"

The former would, if humanly possible, get my willing cooperation. The latter would attract an Anglo Saxon response!

 

[Malish]

For me, there would be a world of difference between the safety boat asking

"the race is about to start in a couple of minutes, would you mind awfully hanging back until they're off?"

and

"we're starting a race, wait here"

The former would, if humanly possible, get my willing cooperation. The latter would attract an Anglo Saxon response!

from the OP.....
"So I go over to tell the helm a race is about to start and ask for a bit of consideration. "
is that your option a) or b)?

 

[Bru]

from the OP.....
"So I go over to tell the helm a race is about to start and ask for a bit of consideration. "
is that your option a) or b)?

not clear!

Depends on factors such as whether he defined "consideration" and very much on the tone of voice

 

[Scotsailor]

Why didn’t they just delay the start until the yacht had safely passed?

 

[johnalison]

Why didn’t they just delay the start until the yacht had safely passed?

This would have been awkward if the first timing gun/hooter had already gone. They would have had to call for a postponement and start the whole business all over again one the whole fleet had been reeled in.

 

[Bru]

Why didn’t they just delay the start until the yacht had safely passed?

As often as not, the race is won by the first boat across the line when the starting gun goes off and there's several minutes of tactical weaving about to try and be that boat (and if at all possible to knobble, strictly within the rules, your biggest opposition by forcing them to tack, pushing them out wide or whatever)

Basically, the race starts anything up to ten minutes before the race starts

Which is why, if asked nicely and it was feasible, I'd be perfectly happy to hold back for a few minutes until they're all off on the first board and generally heading in a fairly predictable direction!

 

[Capt Popeye]

This would have been awkward if the first timing gun/hooter had already gone. They would have had to call for a postponement and start the whole business all over again one the whole fleet had been reeled in.

Yep is there not a Recall sign or Cannon plus Flag that denotes a recall sign that the race is to be re run or re started ; = Great fun to watch from ashore {#

 

[PeterWright]

Why didn’t they just delay the start until the yacht had safely passed?

Please try following my suggestion in post #51

Peter.

 

[johnalison]

However, as Bru experienced at school all those years ago, a dinghy instructor is expected to train their students from level 1 to avoid collisions and put safety above everything else.

Peter.

One of the more enjoyable twenty minutes of my life was spent in our cockpit while moored in the Helford river. On a quiet evening a crowd of Oppies came down the river, making quite a lot of noise and accompanied by a couple of ribs. The children or wild beasts or whatever they were were no doing anything serious but attempting to wet each other as much as possible. After a short while the rules changed and it became a matter of trying to cause as many collisions as possible. It struck me that if they hadn't learned the fine art of sailing after a bit of this mayhem it wouldn't have been for lack of trying.