Old Oyster worth considering?

[Kukri]

I agree

Any scientific basis for that somewhat odd statement?

Firstly, as far as I can tell, “forumites” sail boats from 16 - 60 foot, covering all bases in between. So not sure what size of boats you think we “generally sail”?
Also, many/most medium sized new boats these days are designed with a strong eye to the charter market - where the gear and equipment gets very heavy (and often unsympathetic) use. Certainly not a light duty cycle, and arguably many aspects to heavier use than long term cruisers.

I write in support of Michael, who certainly gets to see a lot of boats, which would give a basis for his statement, were there no others.

However, I think that if we add together some fairly commonplace observations - that charter fleets sell on their boats after a few years, that people are sometimes cautioned (whether rightly or not I cannot say) against buying these boats, on the grounds that they will be worn out, that the mass production market is extremely price sensitive, that most privately owned boats get very little use, and that there is a two tier market in most yacht gear with the ‘best’ windlasses, winches, furlers, and what have you costing much more than mainstream items and, in my limited experience, working much more reliably after a few years, we can perhaps think that Michael might be right.

My experience with buying older plastic boats has been limited (I have a pretty good idea of where I would be with older wooden ones) but I made a false start with a boat that looked good only to find that just about everything was worn out. My second attempt was with a big boat that had been in almost constant use as a sail trainer for four decades, but she the gear she came with was really good and she had had plenty of care and maintenance. If it gets set, it’s Sanders. If it rotates, it’s Harken. If it hoists something, it’s Dyneema. If it stores electricity, it’s Rolls. If it cooks, it’s GN Espace. And so on.

 

[Paddy Fields]

It's quite simple Paddy Fields, probability. A newer boat probably has less stuff that is worn out than a 30 year old boat. There are always exceptions.

What I was trying to get at in my original post was that there are probably several boat life "milestones", and these might be correlated to steps in the depreciation curve of boats.

quoting this article: Depreciation « YachtWorld UK
<<As a rough guide, new vessels generally lose around 40-50 per cent of their initial cost over the first 8-10 years, with around half that figure loaded on the first two or three years. Once a boat is a decade old depreciation generally slows to less than five per cent annually.>>

So there are kinks in the depreciation curve at 2-3 years, and 8-10 years, which probably correspond to times when boats tend to change hands.

 

[V1701]

The last plastic boat I bought was a Bowman 26, I happen to like older boats in a similar way that I like old cars & motorbikes but in boat terms it's of course also what I can afford. While I like having a long, encapsulated keel & protected rudder I wasn't specifically looking for a Bowman 26 or any other particular make/model for that matter. Why I bought her is that she has nearly new engine/sails/standing rigging/bunk cushions & a winvane steering gear and the work that does need doing (which all boats have) is not critical, more just things to do when I've time.
The point being after 20 years (which is the age of boat mentioned in the original post) there is not much depreciation curve left and you simply treat each individual boat on it's merits. If you want to discount certain makes or models for whatever reason that's fine and it doesn't really matter because there are plenty for sale. Buying a boat should be enjoyable but you have got to put a lot of time and effort in and there will be plenty of occasions when you walk away disappointed, I think the OP has the right attitude in that he's in no rush and looking at all the possibilities...

 

[ip485]

My experience is this. In terms of the better made yachts, the structure will be good for considerably more than ten years. Its all the third party kit that will be beginning to fail. That doesnt mean everything, but it may means lots of things! Motors seem especially susceptible - so expect water pumps, bow thrusters, windlasses etc to require replacing. Some of the sail handling hardware will also be showing its age - furlers may need new bearings, and expect some in mast to be suffering. Almost certainly electronics will be out dated and you will do very well to get 10 years out of the batteries, so these will depend when they were last replaced. The big ticket items are things like tanks (which may be corroded, Gensets, often not known for their longevity), all the sails and even the canvass, a new spray hood can be a few thousand, and one at the end of its life is not to be set off with. As I said before, pottering around the UK is one thing, but blue water live a board is another. You will put as much wear on the boat in a month as it gets in a season, and you really dont want to spend your time fixing stuff, never mind sourcing parts. I would recommed to anyone, live on board for two weeks, crack in a few hundred miles of sailing, and stay off shore power the whole time - you will then know what works and what doesnt.

 

[PHN]

In terms of the better made yachts, the structure will be good for considerably more than ten years. Its all the third party kit that will be beginning to fail.

My main concern is how good can I expect the structural integrity to be of a 30 or 40 years old quality yacht. Of course a survey must prove that for an individual yacht, but there will be a general idea and experience on this forum. I know people who would never take a 10+ years old yacht on a tour around the world, while many others have no problem with it.

Everything that is "bolted on" can be replaced and is not an issue if that replacement is reflected in the purchase price.

 

[eddystone]

AFAIK

My main concern is how good can I expect the structural integrity to be of a 30 or 40 years old quality yacht. Of course a survey must prove that for an individual yacht, but there will be a general idea and experience on this forum. I know people who would never take a 10+ years old yacht on a tour around the world, while many others have no problem with it.

Everything that is "bolted on" can be replaced and is not an issue if that replacement is reflected in the purchase price.

GRP has been around since WW2 and I’ve not heard of “plastic fatigue”. Of course one can’t see into the internal structure but the question is whether there is a time issue with fully cured resin although I suspect not - all the issues we hear of seem to be defective manufacturing. I would think the suspect areas on a 40/50 year old GRP boat would be hull/bulkhead joins, chain plate bedding, rudder/shaft and keel bolts.

 

[rotrax]

AFAIK

GRP has been around since WW2 and I’ve not heard of “plastic fatigue”. Of course one can’t see into the internal structure but the question is whether there is a time issue with fully cured resin although I suspect not - all the issues we hear of seem to be defective manufacturing. I would think the suspect areas on a 40/50 year old GRP boat would be hull/bulkhead joins, chain plate bedding, rudder/shaft and keel bolts.

I am still using a 1958 solid GRP two piece Milbro fishing rod. I wish I could buy stuff that served so well for so long today at the very modest price it cost Dad for my 12th Birthday. Caught some good fish on it too.

 

[gertha]

Here is what I know.
For 10 years I had a Hanse 370, bought from new, we sailed about 20k miles together and has since sailed another Atlantic circuit.
I now have a 37 year old Swan. 46.

i sold the Hanse as I had sailed every thing I wanted to sail in her my aspirations had moved on, I was looking for a round the world boat.
The Hanse could have happily sailed the world, the two problems were speed and comfort. The Hanse ,light and bouncy, not as comftable as a bigger boat.
Speed for me is a slight issue as I have no desire to live for ever on boat. To sail round the world enough speed is needed to stay with the trade winds, if not you can find you have limited time in places, or time has to be spend out of weather systems.

Personally I do not like Oyster, but that is my problem.

I bought Swan. In 3 years of ownership I started with a major refurb. sailed Atlantic circuit to shake out more snags, now close to ready to go.
Here a brief list of work done, in no particular order.

1. keelson removed, regalvenised, replaced 4k
2 mast boom striped of everything, repainted , put back together 4k
3 new rod rigging, this a hassle as original kit obsolete.
4 complete refurb of jib curler with new foils.
5 install 2nd jib furler 30k
6 hydraulic backstay and vang, refurb. Pump is this winter.
7 winches, 2 are damaged, waiting for some secondhand to appear.
8 engine is bad tempered at low reves, spent lots in two years, now trying fuel pump.
9 alternator and associated charge problems, fried batteries mid Atlantic. Think it is fixed now .
10 bilge pumps all replaced
11 boat bought from Majorca, all work that was done for previouse owner was faulty, a complete lack of skills on the island as mega yachts and charter keep all good people employed, this confirmed by local boat owner on island who is about as high up the ladder as you can go.
12 teak decks , probably about 14 man days, refurbing, one day they will go, but they have life in them.

if you buy an old boat it will always need work, the same applies to a new boat.
a new boat , systems are hard to get too as much is fitted in factory and becomes buried.
An old boat , things come apart , everything can be removed and replaced but obviously I can only speak for Swan

 

[PHN]

Personally I do not like Oyster, but that is my problem.

It would be a dull world if we all had the same boat .

I have looked at Swan, but don't like their bridge deck and "coal hatch" design. We all have our preferences. Other characteristics I try to stay away from are teak deck and furling main.

 

[Paddy Fields]

GRP has been around since WW2 and I’ve not heard of “plastic fatigue”.

Composites fatigue as well, and the relationship ive been told is similar, with damage exponentially increasing as the amount of deformation increases, and a damage curve with steps in it.

I presume with tiny deformations , you get a theoretical infinite life.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

To answer OP’s question. First mate and I bought a 1984 Landamore built Oyster Heritage 37 in 2008. Apart from normal maintenance. All that has needed to be done is to install shore power, heating and bow thrusters. Sails have been replaced when required (not all) and the boat has been cruised to the North of Scotland, Netherlands, Southern Brittany and places in between. If I were younger I would not hesitate to go bigger to a 435, 45 or 47. Our boat has not got teak decks but the tradmaster will have to be replaced shortly. I would say the quality is on a par with HR’# Najads and the like. Agree about Contests and also consider Wauquiez boats

 

[PHN]

The Heritage has some resemblance to the Wauquiez Centurion as they are both Holman & Pye designs. That could be a consideration, except that the Centurion 36 is too small and the 38 - 42 foot Wauquiez boats from that era have a "coal hatch" entrance to the cabin which I don't like. Also they often have teak decks in poor quality which is another reason to walk away.

Older Contests are not on my list. The one's that I have seen in the age from mid 70's to early 80's were more or less in an "end of life" stadium with keel bolts almost completely rusted away and other serious structural issues. That can of course have happened due to owner neglect, but it is what I have seen on the market.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I rather like the Oyster 406 . Centre cockpit, excellent headroom and quality fit out below. Fully supported rudder which I would like for girdling oceans . Nice comfortable ride and strongly built. I would think that a 1980's built boat with newish engine and teak deck would be very attractive for single hander or a couple.

Sail nicely but they have a small rudder for marina work. Ones with a bow thruster
would be desirable.

 

[michael_w]

Err. The Heritage and the Centurion are most certainly not alike! Kurrawong Kid of this parish has owned both and will no doubt agree!

Centurion is closest to a Contessa 32, the Heritage is like a smaller sister of the Oyster 406 and 435.

 

[PHN]

I rather like the Oyster 406 . Centre cockpit, excellent headroom and quality fit out below. Fully supported rudder which I would like for girdling oceans . Nice comfortable ride and strongly built. I would think that a 1980's built boat with newish engine and teak deck would be very attractive for single hander or a couple.

Sail nicely but they have a small rudder for marina work. Ones with a bow thruster
would be desirable.

Centre cockpit has a few disadvantages for my plans:
- higher above water, meaning a bigger roll/motion/acceleration and hence bigger risk for sea sickness in rough weather
- short handed external things like moorings and pontoons are more difficult to reach then from an aft cockpit

Teack deck definitely means "walk away". On older boats there is just too much risk this can become a nightmare if it isn't already.

 

[Graham376]

Centre cockpit has a few disadvantages for my plans:
- higher above water, meaning a bigger roll/motion/acceleration and hence bigger risk for sea sickness in rough weather
- short handed external things like moorings and pontoons are more difficult to reach then from an aft cockpit

We've found just the opposite. My wife used to suffer badly from seasickness when we had aft cockpit boats but not since we moved to CC as we're sitting closer to the centre of pitch so less acceleration and we have been out many times in rough weather. The centre cleat which we use first for pontoons is closer to cockpit and it's no different to aft cockpit when picking up a mooring.

 

[siwhi]

Assuming you have about £80k to spend, I would look for the best condition boat which meets these criteria:

1) It has many of the traditional bluewater features (raked stem, skeg hung rudder, a cutter rig). This YM article on Kraken is a rehearsal of the usual points made:

https://static.wixstatic.com/ugd/d0ea5f_73d06fb69968435eb83fe9bee8b06c97.pdf
2) It has some practical features, such as a large and comfortable bunk / sleeping cabin which you can see out of (think anchor dragging), all lines led to the cockpit (think reefing in a gale), a sugar scoop stern (easy boarding with shopping), no teak or blue hull (heat).
3) In my opinion you also need to keep it as simple as possible. For me that means no gen set, no watermaker, basic instruments with an old ipad for navigation, and simple robust comms such as an Iridium Go.

So yes, that means a 1980’s Oyster could be on my shortlist, ignoring the possible red flag of the teak deck. The age wouldn’t put me off too much as long as critical items had been replaced (engine, sails, electrics and plumbing), and it would certainly be preferable to a much newer standard production boat (eg Hanse, Beneteau, etc). That said I would be focussed on 1990’s and 2000’s Scandinavian and UK boats (plus some French exceptions such as Amels, Wauquiez).

 

[neil1967]

We have a 1987 Oyster 406. You shouldn't have any problems structurally on an 80's Oyster - the hulls are very well made and over engineered. Clearly if equipment is original it is likely to need replacing (cooker, heads, pumps, etc), but the mast, boom etc is likely to be OK. I really like the design of the Oysters, and you can see the design cues of the older Oysters in the newer ones, but you are not going to get the same space in the older designs, with the narrower sterns. We're happy with our choice......

 

[Uricanejack]

This is both old and new.... and cheap as well...and built for the job:

Boat Details - John Rodriguez Yachts

Buy it please and save me having to keep gawping at it.

Yes. I’ve looked a dreamt as well, unfortunately about 3 times my budget. Been for sale for quite a while, I wonder how open to offers.
If I remember corectly built for sail training, sea scouts or the like. So a bit basic but recently refitted for a RTW who gave up in the Canaries.
So probably has all the requirements.

Old design, so not selling fast. I suppose it lacks kerb appeal, to some.
I’m a sure it would sell at the right price.

 

[PHN]

Yes. I’ve looked a dreamt as well, unfortunately about 3 times my budget. Been for sale for quite a while, I wonder how open to offers.
If I remember corectly built for sail training, sea scouts or the like. So a bit basic but recently refitted for a RTW who gave up in the Canaries.
So probably has all the requirements.

Old design, so not selling fast. I suppose it lacks kerb appeal, to some.
I’m a sure it would sell at the right price.

IMHO dreams can turn into nightmares when the first maintenance bills for bigger boats are received. Bigger usually means a hefty price tag for maintenance, mooring and other cost plus the challenge that availability of bigger moorings/pontoons in popular spots runs out quickly and the need for more crew to handle the ship. Statistically a sailing yacht is moored/docked somewhere for the bigger part of its life time.

For myself something in the 38 - 40 ft range is big enhough. Recently I have seen a well maintained Beneteau First of comparable size and age sell for about half this price after being for sale some time. Indeed a different boat, but I was not interested just because it was too big.