petem
Well-Known Member
Engines are being serviced this week. Should I have the oil tested to compare it with last year's results? It's on the hard so any sample will be from cold oil, does this matter?
Oil testing
- Thread starter petem
- Start date
Greg2
Well-Known Member
I think it is better warm Pete beacasue is easier to draw and it is well mixed if the engines have been running. Might still be worth it though - we have only a partial service history and pre-purchase oil analysis was great so my plan is to do it each year to build up a clear indicator of the condition of the engines to reassure potential purchasers in the future.
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jrudge
Well-Known Member
Where do you get it done and what is the cost please
Never done it but if cheap enough the boat is a keeper so it could be worthwhile
Never done it but if cheap enough the boat is a keeper so it could be worthwhile
kashurst
Well-Known Member
I think there is a real danger of driving yourselves crazy. If the engines run well, with good oil pressure - forget about it.
Think about it:- what will you do if the test results come back with a nasty surprise (they won't)
Think about it:- what will you do if the test results come back with a nasty surprise (they won't)
JerryC
Well-Known Member
Well I had a nasty surprise.
When I bought my last boat, engines ran well and oil pressures were good on the sea trial, however the oil samples came back with a very high lead content, identical in both engines (there's the clue). Fortunately the surveyor was up to it and we queried the seller who admitted to using supercheapo oil (Comma!!!) and had added an additive but couldn't remember which one, doh! Oil was changed immediately for Volvo stuff at broker's expense, and we resampled the oil after 100 engine hours. Result: NO lead in the oil. Sampled it every 100 hours since and looked for a trend ... there wasn't one.
Was I driving myself crazy?
When I bought my last boat, engines ran well and oil pressures were good on the sea trial, however the oil samples came back with a very high lead content, identical in both engines (there's the clue). Fortunately the surveyor was up to it and we queried the seller who admitted to using supercheapo oil (Comma!!!) and had added an additive but couldn't remember which one, doh! Oil was changed immediately for Volvo stuff at broker's expense, and we resampled the oil after 100 engine hours. Result: NO lead in the oil. Sampled it every 100 hours since and looked for a trend ... there wasn't one.
Was I driving myself crazy?
kashurst
Well-Known Member
no and yes
great idea testing an unknown engine. Once the engine is known and properly looked after thereafter what are you expecting to find?
if you do find something what will you then do?
jrudge
Well-Known Member
I suppose ( speaking with little knowledge ) that for example if iron goes up it can only come from the piston rings etc so it would give an indication of what part was failing.
It may however be that the metals are all similar and it tells you nothing !
It may however be that the metals are all similar and it tells you nothing !
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
I used Finnings. The result last test was that the oil was still almost new condition.
This being the case I did not change it, as if it is left to continue in service any contaminant build up will show a more effective history than flushing away any background levels and keep replenishing with new oil. This seems to fly in the face of private boat ownership, but lorries and buses with broadly similar engines will travel hundreds if not thousands of hours between oil changes, and typically those engines could run a million miles.
The report here has Finnings details on. I recall these are about £25 each and they will provide a sample bottle.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ek8wt7ybmte1fg/Boadicea Oil test Stbd 19.8.16.pdf?dl=0
This being the case I did not change it, as if it is left to continue in service any contaminant build up will show a more effective history than flushing away any background levels and keep replenishing with new oil. This seems to fly in the face of private boat ownership, but lorries and buses with broadly similar engines will travel hundreds if not thousands of hours between oil changes, and typically those engines could run a million miles.
The report here has Finnings details on. I recall these are about £25 each and they will provide a sample bottle.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ek8wt7ybmte1fg/Boadicea Oil test Stbd 19.8.16.pdf?dl=0
JerryC
Well-Known Member
Thanks Superheat, over dinner I was thinking of posting my oil analysis for forumites to learn from, but you beat me to it! Unlike you, I change my oil after every seaon providing I have done over 100 engine hours. If in any one year I haven't been able to use the boat much so the hours are a lot lower then the oil stays in for another season, but I sample it anyway. (BTW your results look very similar to mine after each 100 hrs apart from your copper and calcium.)
To anwer kashurst: finding no upward trend in wear or contamination gives me peace of mind, if I were to find something going wrong then I would know which of these it is, and therefore have an idea what to do to fix it. It's not the condition of the oil i'm getting, its the condition of the engines, probably the most significant element of the resale value of my boat. And when it came time to sell, it provided some sort of 'provenance', along with the maintenance records and bills.
To anwer kashurst: finding no upward trend in wear or contamination gives me peace of mind, if I were to find something going wrong then I would know which of these it is, and therefore have an idea what to do to fix it. It's not the condition of the oil i'm getting, its the condition of the engines, probably the most significant element of the resale value of my boat. And when it came time to sell, it provided some sort of 'provenance', along with the maintenance records and bills.
Piers
Well-Known Member
I check Play d'eau's engine oils every three years. I order the sample bottles from Cummins parts. It's a real comfort and after 15 seasons all wear and tear is 'normal' with no anomolies.
Greg2
Well-Known Member
Piers
Well-Known Member
Perhaps take preventative action before it becomes a more serious issue?
Exactly. The analysis will advise which components of the engine are wearing and therefore liable to failure. This is analysed by knowing the engine from which the oil sample is taken, and the metals used in its components.
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Why did the broker, and not the owner, pay for an oil change?
kashurst
Well-Known Member
sorry I'm still not convinced
Engine oil analysis - metals inside typical engine that are oil lubricated
Cylinder head, engine block - cast iron
Valves, valve springs, collets etc - steel (iron)
Valve guides bronze - copper, zinc, tin
Crank shaft, Cylinder heads, oil pump, gears, conrods - steel (iron based)
Piston rings - iron and steel alloys - iron based
Pistons - Aluminium alloy - aluminium
Crank to Cam gear housing - aluminium alloy - aluminium
White metal bearings for main bearings, thrust washers, big ends, little ends, camshaft, camshaft gears - lead,tin and copper plus other unusual metals
Carbon, Acids, Water - old dirty oil
so if you start to see higher levels of iron - what part is wearing out? you can't tell.
if the valve guides are worn you start burning oil - blue smoke
if piston rings have worn you get blue smoke
if a piston has got a hole in you have a lot of problems - you won't need oil analysis
if you start to see an increase in lead, tin and copper - its probably the main bearings or big ends - so the oil pressure will be reducing too. However these white metal items usually last an extraordinarily long time but when they do start to wear they wear faster as there is more movement, bigger oil gap, lower oil pressure etc. At which point is rebuild time. The only preventative maintenance you can do is keep the oil clean, keep the cooling system working properly so the engine isn't tight, and don't thrash your engines.
No doubt VolvoPaul will come along shortly and point out my glaring error, but at the moment all oil analysis does for me is highlight the state of the white metal bearings in your engine and the condition of the engine oil.
Good idea when you first buy a boat but there after ????
Engine oil analysis - metals inside typical engine that are oil lubricated
Cylinder head, engine block - cast iron
Valves, valve springs, collets etc - steel (iron)
Valve guides bronze - copper, zinc, tin
Crank shaft, Cylinder heads, oil pump, gears, conrods - steel (iron based)
Piston rings - iron and steel alloys - iron based
Pistons - Aluminium alloy - aluminium
Crank to Cam gear housing - aluminium alloy - aluminium
White metal bearings for main bearings, thrust washers, big ends, little ends, camshaft, camshaft gears - lead,tin and copper plus other unusual metals
Carbon, Acids, Water - old dirty oil
so if you start to see higher levels of iron - what part is wearing out? you can't tell.
if the valve guides are worn you start burning oil - blue smoke
if piston rings have worn you get blue smoke
if a piston has got a hole in you have a lot of problems - you won't need oil analysis
if you start to see an increase in lead, tin and copper - its probably the main bearings or big ends - so the oil pressure will be reducing too. However these white metal items usually last an extraordinarily long time but when they do start to wear they wear faster as there is more movement, bigger oil gap, lower oil pressure etc. At which point is rebuild time. The only preventative maintenance you can do is keep the oil clean, keep the cooling system working properly so the engine isn't tight, and don't thrash your engines.
No doubt VolvoPaul will come along shortly and point out my glaring error, but at the moment all oil analysis does for me is highlight the state of the white metal bearings in your engine and the condition of the engine oil.
Good idea when you first buy a boat but there after ????
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Snapshot oil sampling is of little value, you spend hours trying to work out wear metals. High Sodium is indication of pending head gasket failure but other than that.. Proper service regime means regular oil sampling graphing TBN depletion and TAN increase with hours and tracking of wear metals.
Recently had a Cummins B Series rejected on survey due to high aluminum content. I suggested blow by test which engine past easily, I dismissed pistons however owner keen to sell the boat and had engine lifted and torn down for me to inspect. The insides were like new in fact tolerances were within new spec so engine rebuilt.
I eventually found the source of the aluminium, injection pump had been poorly rebuilt by pump shop and the pump casing was damaged.
Typical case of oil sample testing causing lots of questions but scant few answers..
kashurst
Well-Known Member
LS how old and how many hours were on that engine?
Greg2
Well-Known Member
Yep, wouldn’t disagree that snapshot sampling is of limited use but we plan to do annual to try to build up a picture
longjohnsilver
Well-Known Member
Yep, wouldn’t disagree that snapshot sampling is of limited use but we plan to do annual to try to build up a picture
How many hours a year do you do?
The average is about 50, so in car terms, about 2000 miles. Would anyone consider testing their car engine oil every few months?
Greg2
Well-Known Member
Probably not - the thing is that whilst I know that the engines have been looked after there isn’t a lot of documentation - a fair bit but not comprehensive. I just want to do what I can to build a history to reassure potential purchasers when we come to sell - not a snapshot but hopefully a series of tests showing no drama. Fully accept that if it shows something else then things get a bit more complicated.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
Oil sampling is an interesting one and one which is extremely beneficial to industry but for boats it is of limited value, and of course there are the misconceptions bandied about.
The crack about cheap oils! really, make of oil is unimportant and expensive oils are often no different to cheap oils with the only difference being the amount of profit you put into a corporations pocket if you are silly enough to pay for expensive brand names as often other companies make oil for the top names and they do very little to it, who remembers Mobil 1 coming out, launched to a furore of acclaim and the claim was that it was fully synthetic, but did Mobil produce it? actually it was produce by Comma in Gravesend and sent to Mobil where they added two components to it. Comma produced their version of it and it was exactly the same except it was half the price.
Oil is about specifications and nothing else, getting the correct specification is crucial to engine life, irrespective of the label it wears.
Cold or warm? it doesn't matter as oil holds particles in suspension and as long as the engine is regularly run it will circulate the particles through the filter which will catch them and filter them out. In reality it is more about the engines being run in a working condition where they are run for a prolonged period, under load, as this heats the oil to make it effective and the heat boils off the water it has in suspension and circulates the oil to all parts of the engine so its additives can work to protect the engine. Why do you think engines use a lay up oil when they are to be stood for prolonged periods, instead of engine oil.
Most sampling does not include water content and condition as identifying water is expensive to do and there are many different types of it in any marine engine, therefore most of the samplers who do a general water content test which includes all waters, which is misleading.
More appropriate is a filter test as this gives a much more accurate reading of the samples and very few people do this dur toe cost of cracking the filter housing and extracting the filter element and scraping the filtered material from it.
The crack about cheap oils! really, make of oil is unimportant and expensive oils are often no different to cheap oils with the only difference being the amount of profit you put into a corporations pocket if you are silly enough to pay for expensive brand names as often other companies make oil for the top names and they do very little to it, who remembers Mobil 1 coming out, launched to a furore of acclaim and the claim was that it was fully synthetic, but did Mobil produce it? actually it was produce by Comma in Gravesend and sent to Mobil where they added two components to it. Comma produced their version of it and it was exactly the same except it was half the price.
Oil is about specifications and nothing else, getting the correct specification is crucial to engine life, irrespective of the label it wears.
Cold or warm? it doesn't matter as oil holds particles in suspension and as long as the engine is regularly run it will circulate the particles through the filter which will catch them and filter them out. In reality it is more about the engines being run in a working condition where they are run for a prolonged period, under load, as this heats the oil to make it effective and the heat boils off the water it has in suspension and circulates the oil to all parts of the engine so its additives can work to protect the engine. Why do you think engines use a lay up oil when they are to be stood for prolonged periods, instead of engine oil.
Most sampling does not include water content and condition as identifying water is expensive to do and there are many different types of it in any marine engine, therefore most of the samplers who do a general water content test which includes all waters, which is misleading.
More appropriate is a filter test as this gives a much more accurate reading of the samples and very few people do this dur toe cost of cracking the filter housing and extracting the filter element and scraping the filtered material from it.
