Ocean Yachtmaster Syllabus

[VO5]

The current thread on sextants/astro has made me wonder what really ought to be on the RYA Ocean YM Syllabus.

Surely the purpose of the Ocean YM should be to ensure people have the necessary skills to navigate safely across Oceans. From my memory of the theory I did years ago it seemed to concentrate on two aspects (a)Astro Navigation and (b) Tropical Revolving Storms.

Useful though those may be I would question whether they are really the most important issues for someone planning to cross an Ocean.

IF the purpose of the course is to be relevant to a leisure sailor then surely it should be updated to reflect modern priorities. E.g. I would suggest adding

(a) More information on long range communication (SSB and Satelite)
(b) More about weather forecasting in the oceans
(c) Maybe more First Aid
(d) Handling emergencies - e.g. how to survive in an Avon liferaft for 189 days
(e) Maybe visa/border issues?
(f) GPS?

Now I very much enjoy Astro navigation but in these days I would question whether a sextant, Nautical Almanac and Astro Tables (all cost money and take space) should be regarded as essentials for the leisure sailor. Rather than concentrating on star fixes and the like, why not change the focus to "emergency Astro" - in otherwords basic techniques to aid location in the event of GPS failure but not requiring masses of tables and equipment.

For example given an accurate watch you can get a reasonable position from a basic observation of the meridian transit of the sun using a couple of very simple figures per day.

You mean they didn't teach you currents of all the Seas and Oceans of the World, their rates, directions, point of change, seasonal variation, water temperatures for the regions with seasonal variation, ALL the winds, directions, seasonal variations, average forces, ALL the TRS, for all the Oceans, their expected tracks, nomenclatures, seasonal variations, ALL the different types of ice, Arctic and Antartic, etc., ?

You see what I mean when I comment the syllabus is dumbed down ?

We expected to be rigidly examined on all of these as part of the Meteorological paper, which was close to First Mate, Foreigngoing.
When I remember all the work I had to do, I can tell you it was some mission ! Two years work, the whole lot.

 

[VO5]

Ouch - I didn't realise that it was as bad as that these days. I had noticed the sharp decline in the availability of RYA courses but did not understand the cause.

You have to wonder what planet the RYA are inhabiting these days - there seems very little suppport for their activities in the cruising areas

Well it is a disgrace because what they achieve is to render a disservice to serious yachtsmen while posing and pretending to do the opposite.

I like to ensnare RYA examiners by peppering with questions they cannot answer, just for fun, and the relieving them of their misery by telling them, funny. You cannot be surprised there are a few who spot me and scuttle away...

 

[bilbobaggins]

"There was an ancient mariner, and he stoppeth one of three....."

 

[timbartlett]

You mean they didn't teach you currents of all the Seas and Oceans of the World, their rates, directions, point of change, seasonal variation, water temperatures for the regions with seasonal variation, ALL the winds, directions, seasonal variations, average forces, ALL the TRS, for all the Oceans, their expected tracks, nomenclatures, seasonal variations, ALL the different types of ice, Arctic and Antartic, etc., ?

You see what I mean when I comment the syllabus is dumbed down ?

There are good and bad things about the new and about the old ... and I think we can be pretty certain that no-one sat down in a committee room at RYA towers and said "Right, gentlemen. Our mission is to devalue the Yachtmaster scheme as much as we can get away with." What on earth would be the point?

So what's the point of "teaching" someone stuff that they can get from a standard reference book? You might as well suggest that a Yachtmaster should learn the secondary port differences for every port off by heart. The merit of leaving parrot-fashion learning off the syllabus could be that it leaves more time for teaching concepts or for adding new material, or that it makes the course more available.

And having taught in LEA evening classes myself, I can assure you that funding and timing was a very real issue. For instance, if a course ran over two terms (like most RYA shorebased do) and the break-even attendance was 14 students, it was no good getting fifteen to register. You had to somehow guarantee that 14 would register for the second term as well -- because if they didn't, the LEA would simply stop the course after one term. It meant that unless you could get at least 20, ideally 25 for the first term, you dare not start the course. And I'm afraid you don't tempt 25 people onto a course by promising them that they will have to learn "currents of all the Seas and Oceans of the World, their rates, directions, point of change, seasonal variation, water temperatures for the regions with seasonal variation, ALL the winds, directions, seasonal variations, average forces, ALL the TRS, for all the Oceans, their expected tracks, nomenclatures, seasonal variations, ALL the different types of ice, Arctic and Antartic, etc., " verbatim

 

[stephenh]

Ocean yachtmaster syllabus

I am more than a little confused…

In 1968 two of us signed up for a one year ( not two terms) BoT “Yachtmaster “ course.
It was not called ‘Ocean’ or ‘Offshore’ IIRC. There was no lesser qualification, it was all or nothing.

Semaphore and Morse on wk 1, Meteorology wk 2 and Astro – using the Cosine formula, not Air tables – for wk 3.
Then back to signalling, met., astro – this was the structure for the whole year.

VHF and Decca ( if you could afford them!) were a separate course.

We only survived the first term. The course was way beyond our requirements – we were delivering yachts, mostly South coast work.

Fast forward 30 years, by this time my friend had become a Yachtmaster Instructor and I had crept up the (modern) RYA ladder.
One winter I signed up for the Ocean course and remember the instructor explaining that we only had 40 hours so we should see it as an introduction to Astro with a bit of Met. and that further work by ourselves would be necessary to become proficient (not expert!)
That seemed pretty reasonable.

Given the length of the original BoT course and the amount of learning necessary I would have thought that the RYA Ocean was more than an equivalent. Or has it been shrunk over the last 10 years ?

And no – I don’t want to fill my head with currents, TRSs etc. – I want to be aware of them and know where to look them up for more info.
My RYA Ocean instructor did exactly that.

 

[bedouin]

You mean they didn't teach you currents of all the Seas and Oceans of the World, their rates, directions, point of change, seasonal variation, water temperatures for the regions with seasonal variation, ALL the winds, directions, seasonal variations, average forces, ALL the TRS, for all the Oceans, their expected tracks, nomenclatures, seasonal variations, ALL the different types of ice, Arctic and Antartic, etc., ?

You see what I mean when I comment the syllabus is dumbed down ?

Actually they did teach that - and that was certainly useful - although that was probably only a small proportion of the syllabus what they covered was enough in that respect.

 

[snowleopard]

When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an Attorney's firm.
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor,
And I polished up the handle of the big front door.
I polished up that handle so carefullee
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!


CHORUS REPEATS

As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk.
I served the writs with a smile so bland,
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand--
I copied all the letters in a hand so free,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became;
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the pass examination at the Institute,
And that pass examination did so well for me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership.
And that junior partnership, I ween,
Was the only ship that I ever had seen.
But that kind of ship so suited me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament.
I always voted at my party's call,
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Now landsmen all, whoever you may be,
If you want to rise to the top of the tree,
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool,
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule--
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea,
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!

 

[Moodyjim]

That sounds absolutely reasonable. I get bored by the constant knocking of the RYA when there is nobody else trying to do the job of providing some sort of framework to improve standards that many on the forum seem to be far superior to (judging by the negative comments that flow with ease). Perhaps more constructive criticism would be more productive and certainly more pleasant to read. Most peeps that come into sailing without the benefit of 20,000 nms under their belts appreciate the various levels of training and qualification that the RYA offer and try to climb the ladder to the benefit of all that sail so why not cut a bit of slack occasionally instead of always carping on about what you "think" is wrong. If you really don't like what they do then go and work for them and change it from within!

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

You had to somehow guarantee that 14 would register for the second term as well -- because if they didn't, the LEA would simply stop the course after one term. It meant that unless you could get at least 20, ideally 25 for the first term, you dare not start the course. " verbatim

On my RYA courses we always had to pay for the two terms in advance, so that if people dropped out, the finances were already in place to continue.

 

[bilbobaggins]

You had to somehow guarantee that 14 would register for the second term as well -- because if they didn't, the LEA would simply stop the course after one term. It meant that unless you could get at least 20, ideally 25 for the first term, you dare not start the course.

That's one hell of a dropout rate!

I only let 'em get away for multiple childbirth and incarceration!

 

[Observer]

That's one hell of a dropout rate!

I only let 'em get away for multiple childbirth and incarceration!

"multiple childbirth and incarceration"

"and" or "or"?

 

[oldsaltoz]

Well I can't comment on the RYA, but I do know that my AYF (Australian Yachting Federation) Yachtmaster certificate no walk in park. I thought it would be nice to have the paper as I was doing a few yacht deliveries at the time and the question of qualifications was coming up more regularly.

About 30 of us on the first day, half way through and almost a year later we were down to 16 and only 9 sat for the final written exam a year after that. Of the 9 only 7 of us took to the water with the AYF examiner; a tough old bird he was too.

After a couple of days and nights at sea and endless sets of blind navigation, MOB and endless questions we were allowed to return to shore; and advised that an oral axam was planned for the next day and expected to 2 hours each.

About 30 minutes into this the instructor started asking questions that were not ever part of the curriculum, lucky for me I had been around sailing for many years before this exam so had no problems. However, when he announced the exam was completed I had a shot at him regarding the odd questions, his response was that he needed to be sure I had a full understanding (whatever that meant).

Of the 4 of us on that day only 3 of us got a pass, the 4th and last candidate had to do some remedial work on charts before being awarded his certificate, the remaining remaining 3 all passed the following week.

The only other thing that struck me as odd at the time was the number of overseas candidates, mostly from the USA and Canada. I still have no answer for this?

The people that dropped out were for the most part locals and they thought it was all a bit too complicated and hard, but only 2 from The USA left.

That was many years ago and I planned to go to the Maritime Collage in Hobart for a 10 week course to upgrade to Skippers ticket, but work commitments prevented this.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[BlueSkyNick]

"multiple childbirth and incarceration"

"and" or "or"?

you should be asking if he meant himself or the victims, sorry, students.

 

[snowleopard]

Well I can't comment on the RYA, but I do know that my AYF (Australian Yachting Federation) Yachtmaster certificate no walk in park.

What you may not be aware of is that the principal RYA qualification is the Yachtmaster (Offshore) which tests everything needed to run a yacht under normal circumstances, i.e. within a few hours of land. It includes a one-to-one practical exam lasting 8-12 hours during which you have to carry out a series of tasks which may include blind pilotage, MOB, mooring under sail etc.

The Ocean certificate is an add-on so you can't get it without first passing the Offshore. It adds just items where ocean crossing differs from coastal work, i.e. navigation out of sight of land including astro, ocean met and management of a yacht on a long passage.

 

[Daedelus]

To answer bedouinss original points: I was at a seminar of instructors some while ago when the subject of what should be in the Ocean ticket syllabus was discussed and much of what has been said was agreed: there is a change to GPS from sextant and Sun-run-sun rather than astro was going to be the order of the day.

Also the more detailed elements such as first aid (go on ship captain's medical first aid at sea course) or diesel (diesel course then buy an old boat) are available elsewhere and it's probably better that the various elements are split.

Why not much has happened yet I don't know, but I expect it's a case of time to redo a course.

however, write to the RYA training section and put your points to them. As for all the berking on about the RYA that the thread developed, some I agree with, but if you want to make a difference give them all your suggestions rather than just say what a bunch of numpties they are.

 

[Bilgediver]

For example given an accurate watch you can get a reasonable position from a basic observation of the meridian transit of the sun using a couple of very simple figures per day.

Can almost do that with a stick and a bit of string if you try hard enough!!!!

 

[VO5]

To answer bedouinss original points: I was at a seminar of instructors some while ago when the subject of what should be in the Ocean ticket syllabus was discussed and much of what has been said was agreed: there is a change to GPS from sextant and Sun-run-sun rather than astro was going to be the order of the day.

Also the more detailed elements such as first aid (go on ship captain's medical first aid at sea course) or diesel (diesel course then buy an old boat) are available elsewhere and it's probably better that the various elements are split.

Why not much has happened yet I don't know, but I expect it's a case of time to redo a course.

however, write to the RYA training section and put your points to them. As for all the berking on about the RYA that the thread developed, some I agree with, but if you want to make a difference give them all your suggestions rather than just say what a bunch of numpties they are.

What for ?

Isn't it obvious that in all of this the driving force that stimulates the pursuit of excellence has been disabled ?

Isn't it obvious that the pursuit of excellece has been sacrificed in the interest of business ?

Who is going to listen ?

And more to the point who is capable of doing anthing about it ?

For example, see if you can name one teaching establishment catering for yachtmasters that has

(a) a functioning Planetarium.
(b) a tank.
(c) a deviascope.

Additionally, see if you can name a teaching establishment catering for yachtmasters that has proper tutors who can teach practical nautical astronomy using a Planetarium; the effects of tide, current and wind using a tank; and practical Compass Adjustment using a Deviascope. These are just three examples of many I can give.

The problem is two fold.

Part one is that the funding has evaporated to be able to teach in depth, properly together with the political will to do so.

Part two is that convenient excuses and idiotic reasons are found to justify the delivery of half baked education that the public actually believes and is forced to accept.

It seems to me the Genie is out of the bottle. I am not volunteering to try to have it put back. I consider it to have been an homour and a priviledge to have recieved the seafaring instruction and knowledge that I did, at a time when it was still feasable. It does not seem feasable now because the mortifying real reason must be it is no longer affordable.

The nation prefers to spend money on twaddle instead of worthwhile projects must be the blunt truth.

 

[bilbobaggins]

The nation prefers to spend money on twaddle instead of worthwhile projects must be the blunt truth.

You really must meet my friend Webbie.

 

[VO5]

Yes, well, its intellectual bankruptcy really.

I was present at an RYA class on Chartwork as an observer.

Horrific it was.

The explanation of EP DR and FIX was a real conundrum to the students.

The explanation of Set and Drift, Tide and Leeway was the worst I have ever heard, embarrasing.

The tutor was not able to walk single handed dividers across a chart that had a course laid on it with zig zag legs. When he got to a corner...all was confusion...

 

[timbartlett]

Isn't it obvious that in all of this the driving force that stimulates the pursuit of excellence has been disabled ?

Isn't it obvious that the pursuit of excellece has been sacrificed in the interest of business ?

I'm not completely convinced that the Yachtmaster (or Ocean Yachtmaster) or any of the other RYA certificates were "the pursuit of excellence". If they were, then I would have to agree (at least up to a point) with VO5.
But we (and the RYA) live and work in the real world. It might be nice if every diesel engine student went away from his course with a full knowledge of how to strip and reassemble any make or model of diesel engine, how to carry out all the tests and repair procedures on injectors and fuel pumps, and the ability to make up any spare parts required using normal workshop equipment. etc.etc.
But it simply ain't going to happen. Very few people would have the time, money, and interest required to attend such a course. And once they'd done it, they'd then -- according to the pursuit of excellence" theory -- have to do the same thing in radio, radar, navigation, boat handling, first aid management, catering, meteorology etc.etc.

First and foremost, I think the RYA has to be pragmatic. There's no point running courses that no-one wants to go on, or running courses for so few people that no-one can afford to run them.