Now where do I stand?

[castaway]

Towards the end of last summer I finally allowed my work colleagues to badger me into taking them sailing for day.

I was worried that they would simply consider I was mad, as I recognise that the average persons perception of yachting is not at all the same as the reality.

I turned out, however to be a 100% success dispite only average weather, now I find that I have people queuing up wanting to come sailing and pay for it!

I work in an area where there is almost limitless supply of shift workers with time off in the week and an interest in filling that time.

I'm happy to do this and cover my costs etc but where do I stand with regard to official regulation, over and above my understood duty of care and responsibility to any person who steps aboard? Boat is BOT registered.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather>http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather</A>

Thanks Nick



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[Guest]

I remember years ago offering my boat to Scouts .... I was buying a bigger boat and thought .... well old one's not so high value but in good nick ... they can benefit - God forbid I ever considered it !
I first of all received a set of papers detailing all manner of mods and fittings I had to put on, second a set of docs detailing all responsibilities and discalimers etc., second a doc stating clearly that I was responsible for all and sundry and that Scout Org. was in no way liable for upkeep etc. etc.

I only wanted to give them a 19ft boat that they could 'free-of-charge' have to do what they wanted and possibly help a few lads get afloat .....

I used to do the rope ladders and all-sorts for them - basically I gave up eventually - OK I work abroad too much now, but then it was full of rules and regs etc. etc. that it took all the fun out of it. I agree that their lives are at risk and should be protected and all should be done in accoradnace with good safe practice .... witness the Canoeing incident of South Coast a few yaesr ago ....

BUT ..... I wil not go that route again - and I wish you luck with taking mates / friends etc. sailing - but beware of any slips, mishaps, claims that may come your way if anything goes wrong ..... there was a thread a while back about 3rd party claims against boat owner / skipper - made me sit up and think more carefully. DO a good turn and get roasted when the sod slips on deckl ..... literally.

I wish you all the best and hope all enjoy it - just take care !


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[castaway]

Hi Nigel

Yes Im sure yr correct... I noticed last summer a guy up at Yarmouth doing day trips on his Watson Lifeboat and wondered at the time how he does it.. Ex Fireman and not even a local!

(Hows the engine problem going?)

Regds Nick

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[snowleopard]

on a very occasional basisi, if people want to pay you for use of the boat, ask them to make a 'donation' after the successful completion of the trip.

on a regular basis you wouldn't get away with that so you would need to get the boat fully coded and inspected, take out commercial insurance and get yourself a yachtmaster ticket with commercial endorsement. in other words there is no halfway house between a charter business and sailing with friends for free.

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[bigmart]

I sail with a Sail Training Organisation (Charity) that takes kids to sea, basically for the cost of their food, for a week. Now we are talking about larger vessels here 50 to 75 ft but the rules, as I understand it, are basically the same.

I would think that your boat would have to be kitted out with all the safety gear that you would expect to find on a, properly set up, charter yacht. I suspect this would need to be checked & coded by the MCA or similar.

All the Skippers on our vessels have to have the Commercial Endorsement on the RYA Yachtmaster. This means that you will have to have completed the Yachtmaster Offshore course plus First Aid, Sea Survival & Diesel engine Maintenance. You will have to get your doctor to complete a Medical Evaluation Form. If you take kids you may also need to get clearance from the Criminal Records Beaureau(is that spelt correctly).

A Commercial Endorsement is available for the Coastal Skipper Qualification but I don't know if this is valid if you are in command of the boat.

To maintain these qualifications you will need to re-apply every five years with a new medical form & a log of your mileage over the last five years.

Ive just re-applied.

Only a guess but I would also think you would need some form of Public Liability Insurance.

Of course, if you don't charge, you don't need any of this.

Martin

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[AlexL]

Hi

I am a private pilot and there are well documented regulations about how much people can and cannot pay before the flight would be considered commercial. (basically you can split the costs and only the costs exactly the number of ways that there are people on the plane - i.e you have to pay your own share aswell). I'm sure it is documented somewhere in our regulation obsessive land exactly what can and cannot be paid for a sailing trip.
I guess legally (my opinion - not a legal one) that as long as the journey was deemed to be pleasure rather than commercial (and that will probably be defined by the level of payment) then your duty of care will be the same as for any other pleasure journey - i.e substantially less than that of a commerical outfit.
You will never guarantee not to be sued but most duties of care are quite reasonable and despite alot of tabloid press to the contrary not that many people get sued for stuff which is unreasonable - you read alot about people 'thinking about' or 'intenting to' sue or even 'taking legal advice' or in some cases even launching a law suit - however you never seem to read about the settlements - maybe because most of the silly cases never go anywhere.
The sticking point as I see it is wether there is any hard and fast rules about cost contribution - if it is up to the relvent agency (MCA? or HSE?) to decide then that could be the problem. The HSE and MSA both seem to be on a power trip at the moment. I have dealt with the HSE as they regulate scuba diving and there exact response when I asked for some guidance about interpreting the law about risk review was "your the expert - you decide, but if you get it wrong we'll be down on you like a ton of bricks". I also spoke to an HSE man at the dive show a couple of years ago and he said that they were planning to prosecute a dive instructor for manslaughter "to make a point" -- nice. (which they subsequently tried last year -- and lost)


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[discoduck]

Hi
Do not take payment.If you do then you have to abide by the charter rules.Increase in insurance,all the safty equipment and last of all you will have to have the cooker gas supplies passed by a gorgi inspector.The latest rule on gas supplies is a stop valve at the vented gas locker and at the cooker itself.
I expect there is a lot more I do not know about.
good luck

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[bedouin]

Not to mention having to be a commercial Yachtmaster yourself!

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[charles_reed]

In the kingdom of the blind...

which just goes to prove that we have a superfluity of legislation which brings all law into disrepute.

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[Peppermint]

Re: MCA or the YCA

websites can help with the safety equipment lists.

You do need a commercial YM ticket.

The biggest danger is that you have a claim that your insurers will weasle out of because you've took cash. Leaving you with a potentialy hugh bill.

My regular crews used to buy the boat presents which ranged from a garlic press to a chart folio.

Of course you could register your boat in Denmark. They don't seem to have a commercial YM hang up. You can just charter your boat out.

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[DeeGee]

Re: MCA or the YCA

Long before I had a 'proper' boat, wife and I were lucky enough to go for a couple of weeks cruising with some friends from the same dinghy club, on their 32ft-er in the Eastern Med. They were more acquaintances than friends, and I was most humbled that they insisted that visitors did no more than pay their share of the shopping along the way. It was hinted that if we wanted to bring a present for the boat, it would be most welcome - we took along a complete new echosounder.

I understand now how delicately and considerately they dealt with this area of over-regulation. I also think it was mutually a pretty fair arrangement - does anyone know where I can get a couple of weeks off Turkey for an echosounder??

(The acquaintances became, and still are, our v good friends).

<hr width=100% size=1>Black Sugar - the sweetest of all

 

[charles_reed]

It\'s a grey area

as to whether you're acting for "Hire and reward" or as a commercial undertaking. Exactly the same snag exists with car-sharing.

If, in a court of law you could prove that the payment was a "contribution to costs" you'd be in the clear. If not you need the Commercial Endorsement and the additional insurance cover and the statutory levels of equipment.

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[charles_reed]

Nota bene

to prove a "contribution to costs" you can only include marginal costs (ie those additional costs as a resulting from not leaving the boat tied up).

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[chris_db4]

Re:costs

i sail with the oyt (formerly the OYC) and take kids sailing this is done under full comercial charter but we are still forced to explain that the side decks are for moving forward on and that no-one stands on the coach roof between the two masts, this means that if someone falls from some where there not suppose to be we're covered as far as taking people sailing for contributions this is quite normal in delivery work where a YM will be payed to move the boat and if he needs extra crew he will get them to pay for what food, fuel etc is used. i would avoid iving them a drink on the way back in to the marina though as if you supply it and they then hurt themsevles you would be in a less favorable position.

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[castaway]

Re:costs

Thanks to all for the replies on this one. I think that it shows that we are now more in danger of the regulations that we have created to protect us, that the perils that we were attempting to legislate against.

Also I suspect that its time to go off and get this Y/Master thing done.. I have a nasty suspicion that pretty soon we will all have to have it anyway.

Thanks and regards Nick. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather>http://www.yachtsite.co.uk/fairweather</A>

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[Twister_Ken]

Quite right

It's not a Benny, it's a Moody

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Cornishman]

This is just the sort of question which the RYA is answering virtually every day of the week. It's one of the things they are there for. Give 'em a call, and I am sure you will get chapter and verse.
If the answer is YES they will then guide you through each stage of getting your boat "coded" and yourself properly qualified.

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