Not sure I agree

[FinesseChris]

My daughter has only been seasick once in four seasons sailing in my little wooden boat.

The cause was some clown in a Princeseeker or Sunsess or something big, white and three-storeyed. He opened the throttles as he exited Chichester on a Sunday afternoon. The resulting wash caused us to drop about eight feet into a hole and then corkscrew wildly. There was I, wrestling with the tiller and missing other yachts by too close a margin, there was my wife mopping up the cockpit, there was the 12-year-old, grey-green and miserable.

It was only when this Red Diesel compaign started that I put 2 and 2 together and realised that my passing clown had been burning untaxed fuel. We don't moor in a marina, and so we take our diesel on board in cans filled at the garage. So the price difference had never really struck me.

So as an RYA member I am expected to join in a campaign to subsidise the show-off we see every weekend.

I don't quite see the logic, or justice. And speaking for myself (and my family) if a cost increase causes a few people to think twice before opening the throttles, I would be quite content.

Sorry to go against the grain, and I don't think I have ever spoken out FOR a tax before, but once again where's the logic?

Best wishes

Chris

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Bergman]

Re: Pretty sure I do

As a raggie myself I have much sympathy with your views on the p*****k in the powerboat.

But taxing diesel is not the answer. The fact is if he can afford to burn that much red diesel he can afford the tax.

And he will still be a P*****k.

Don't know how you stop people behaving like this, short of physical violence (an appealing prospect) but tax is not the answer.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[kds]

Re: Pretty sure I do

Perhaps tax is not the answer - but why should my taxes on other things subsidise his behaviour.
I still think there is on moral argument in favour of cheaper fuel in motor boats than in cars or petrol engined boats.
AND - anything which makes people think twice about wasting fuel by burning it up unnecessarily and adding to pollution can't be bad.
Ken

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[longjohnsilver]

Seems to me your logic is a bit flawed. Totally agree that whoever caused you the problem with wash was idiotic probably verging on being dangerous. But why should his stupidity result in me paying higher costs for my fuel? You should have reported him to the harbour master.

It's a bit like me saying ban all yachts from a certain place cos someone in a small dinghy has tacked straight across my bows in an area of resticted manouverability or yet another dinghy has scraped down the side of my boat on my mooring. Oh yes, some of us do reside outside marinas!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Bergman]

Re: Yes, but

His fuel is not subsidised, it is simply taxed at a lower rate.

Thats a very different thing.

I don't think there needs to be an argument, moral or otherwise, in favour of cheap diesel for non road-going vehicles (it isn't just power boats).

The argument that should be made, and to my mind has not been made, is why road fuel needs to be taxed so heavily. So long as we take the view that not being taxed "until the pips squeal" is a subsidy, then being so taxed will be the norm. Plus of course it won't just be red diesel, but anthing and everything else.

As for pollution I would be more convinced that the government were serious about this if they taxed aviation fuel more heavily.

That stuff is burned by the ton, at high altitude where it does the most damage. So if you want to address global warming etc. then thats the place to start.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Trevor_swfyc]

Re: Pretty sure I do

Sorry cannot see how your taxes subsidize his behaviour, lets not kid ourselves red diesel is not tax free. The oil companies pay large sums in North sea tax and we pay VAT. We are an oil rich country and it produces an enormous amount of revenue such that our use for leisure boating is but a drop in the ocean so to speak. Tax on fuel for leisure boating will not effect the guy in the gin palace it will hit the retired, boating on a shoe string guy who gets pleasure out of messing about in boats. Some have already been priced off the roads you are just voting these guys off the river, which would in my book be rough justice.
Do you like many others enjoy holidays abroad how many miles to the gallon of jetA1 do you think you are consuming at a lot less than £3 a gallon. Maybe somebody has the figures but I would say the polution from aircraft exceeds that from all the cars. So no I am not going to think twice about the very small amount of diesel I use in pursuit of my bit of pleasure.

Happy days!
Trevor


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Mrtallsheep]

Sounds like a green eyed raggie to me! Taxing people will not improve their boating skill and indeed poor manners!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[scarlett]

Tax free bad v Taxed good?

To save me going through all the posts, please point me at someone who has made a reasoned case for retaing tax free diesel.

I admit I use the tax free in my boat when in the UK. But those visiting the continent have to fill up with tax paid. What are their feelings about this?

I would suggest that logically pleasure boat fuel should be tax paid. We accept the tax on our boat, booze, petrol and other pleasures, so why not the diesel. The up side is that we should seek to reduce our consumption and do a little for the planet.

Please reply. I have an open mind.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

You're on a sailing boat in Greece??!!??!!

Hope it rains all summer ;-))

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[steverow]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Yes but the taxes here in the UK are so high that they are way out of proportion to the cost of fuel. You are talking about a four fold increase in fuel prices if it went up to the same tax level as road fuel here. That would price many motorboats totally out of the hobby, as well as wiping thousands off the value of their boats.
I expect most users would not mind a sensible mild increase in duty, but you must remember that we have the most expensive road fuel in Europe by some margin.

Steve.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[whisper]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Hear hear, or is it here here !!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[FinesseChris]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

'wiping thousands off the value of their boats...'

Here we have the nub of the argument. Not only will people have to think harder about burning fuel, but their boat will be worth less as they do it.
Surely anyone spending the large amounts involved in buying a big diesel-engined boat over the last few years, without considering the possible hike in fuel costs if and when the 'concession' ends, was shortsighted?
We are all at the mercy of fiscal decisions by the Chancellor and/or Brussels. Some are impossible to predict. But when you are taking advantage of a loophole, as leisure users of cheap diesel are doing, you must some day expect it to be closed.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

"Would not mind an increase"

So, what do I, personally, gain from this increase?

Nack all is the answer. It will do nothing for the planet, that will only really happen when aviation fuel is taxed on a polluter pays basis. It will add very little in real terms to the money available for Gordon to throw it at his pet projects, once the administrators have been paid for. All it does is polish Gordon and Tony's socialist credentials.

I have to say to those who query why the level of tax should stay low, given that all are innocent until proven guilty, no case has been made for change either. If this ends as a zero sum then surely change cannot be justified.

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[scarlett]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Thanks for all the replies but no one has come up with the reason why tax should not be charged on pleasure fuel.

Incidentally, I will be happy to pay extra for my taxed flight fuel and sure I will have to, as soon as an international agreement is reached to stop airlines filling up in tax free locations.

As to the tax on road vehicle fuel, I would prefer it to be doubled in place of car tax. This would defeat the 10% who don't pay road tax and encourage the development of more efficient cars and drivers, etc. etc. The income could be used to promote public transport and more of it. Again, an international agreement would be needed.

If someone can come up with a reasoned arguement why pleasure fuel should be tax free I will be glad to seriously consider their points.

If you can't convince me, someone who will loose too, you stand no chance against the Treasury.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[steverow]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Are you totally insane ? You would seriously prefer the government to double Road Fuel Duty and abolish Vehicle tax..???
Tax on Road Fuel is about 50p per litre approx...dont know exactly.
I use about 200 litres per month, mainly going back and forth to my boat, so that is £100 in tax on fuel per month, £1200 per year. You want the British Government to double what I pay to £2400 per year and by way of compensation give me £175 worth of Road Fund Tax for nothing...great what a bargain!!!
Apart from bringing British Industry to it's knees overnight, and the effects of the civil unrest that would undoubtedly follow, most of us would be priced off the road permanently. Where is all this public transport that you advocate...this isnt Germany you know, they cant even get the damn railways right here..and probably have no chance of ever doing so.

My freind, I dont wish to be offensive, but, you have either totally mis-read the situation with regard to UK tax or have been at sea for far too long.

A rather miffed Steve.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[steverow]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

I am not advocating any increase. I would much prefer the satus quo, but maybe if we give a little on the VAT perhaps, then we can avoid the huge hike up to Road fuel duty level, which will wipe us out.

Steve.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[steverow]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Chris, you seem to think that all motorboaters go out and buy a gin palace for half a millon quid. Most of us buy secondhand boats costing maybe a tenth of that and struggle to maintain it and pay the marina fees, because it has been our life long dream to own a boat. The guy with a 75ft motoryacht will be able to afford fuel whatever it costs. The people it affects are like me, working with families who will be priced out, or keep it as a Marina cottage, and Yes I cant afford to have 10,000 quid wiped of the value of my boat.... not after all the work Ive done on it .
All I'm trying to say is please dont tar us all with the same brush because of your recent and unfortunate encounter.
Your experience was the very reason that I chose not to have my boat on the south coast, because of all the idiots, although its closer for us than Swansea.
You should try the Bristol Channel, you'll find things a whole lot more courteous, and great sailing too.

Steve.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[halcyon]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Seams the common thing at the moment, if you have nothing you're ok, if your very rich you're ok, if your working for a living you've had it. If you're self employed forget it, either my accountant or the taxman lost my self assesment return last year, so they decided it was late, so they are now trying to charge interest on late payment of the prepayment for next years tax bill, that is 2005 / 2006.
At the moment my customers are not willing to pay there invoices for the period though, they have a odd idea that I have to supply the goods first.

Brian

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Given that government is by the consent of the governed then surely tax should be by consent of the taxed. Prove to me that a tax hike benefits _me_ and I'll be more willing to accept the idea that it should not be opposed.

Now, what benefit will there be that oversets
£5-10K off the value of the boat
Can only afford to fill the tank once or twice per year.

Don't apply the standard green nonsense, the marine pollution contribution is too negligible to count, and if you balance that against increased pollution from marginal boats that are abandoned/sunk (and we all know this happens) the net pollution may even increase.

As for the impact on businesses, Lancing Marine, Coastal Rides etc make a lot of their business out of supplying diesels at the cheaper end of the market, for replacing expensive petrol engines.

So, one of the "pro increase" types, let's see a rational justification based on benefits to the taxed

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[steverow]

Re: Tax free bad v Taxed good?

Brian,

I sold out my own business in 1985 on doctors orders, after having a nervous breakdown, mainly caused by overwork and having to chase customers for money all the time, some of them only too willing to turn you over for thousands, as some did.
I dont envy you.

Steve.


<hr width=100% size=1>