Not another bl***dy windfarm 🤬

stu9000 said:
I try to keep an open mind, and seek the objective reality. I have heard before thst tidal is hard to do. But why? Air is less dense and more fickle. A cubic meter of water weighs a ton. Surely that can be harnessed without blocking off an entire loch. I accept that tidal is likely to be a bit more expensive initially, compared to wind. But is putting the propeller below the water going to br thst much pricier than just above it? My read of this is that the wind farm organisations have a strong lobby which chimes nicely with a cash strapped govt that wants to hit green targets as cheaply as possible. Being cautious with our tax pounds is to be applauded but I suspect the long term cost benefit analysis is losing out to the quick fix.
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I'm guessing that sea water is a harsher environment than the air. Stuff corrodes faster down there and there's the issue of marine growth. Any maintenance is going to involve divers or lifting a heavy turbine to the surface, possibly both. That's going to be expensive. Then there's the issue of having some mechanism which accounts for the change in direction of the tide. That's going to have to work reliably and autonomously for extended periods. Perhaps at some point engineers will crack the problem. The predictability of tide is very compelling if the technology develops I'm sure the companies building wind generators would be just as happy to build and install tidal generators. They're business no religious cults.
 
Puffin10032 said:
I'm guessing that sea water is a harsher environment than the air. Stuff corrodes faster down there and there's the issue of marine growth. Any maintenance is going to involve divers or lifting a heavy turbine to the surface, possibly both. That's going to be expensive. Then there's the issue of having some mechanism which accounts for the change in direction of the tide. That's going to have to work reliably and autonomously for extended periods. Perhaps at some point engineers will crack the problem. The predictability of tide is very compelling if the technology develops I'm sure the companies building wind generators would be just as happy to build and install tidal generators. They're business no religious cults.
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Yes. Very balanced and some good points well made. All solvable in my admittedly layman's view, and worth solving. But as you say, not a cult.
 
Puffin10032 said:
I'm guessing that sea water is a harsher environment than the air. Stuff corrodes faster down there and there's the issue of marine growth. Any maintenance is going to involve divers or lifting a heavy turbine to the surface, possibly both. That's going to be expensive. Then there's the issue of having some mechanism which accounts for the change in direction of the tide. That's going to have to work reliably and autonomously for extended periods. Perhaps at some point engineers will crack the problem. The predictability of tide is very compelling if the technology develops I'm sure the companies building wind generators would be just as happy to build and install tidal generators. They're business no religious cults.
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The issue of marine growth is a serious one. There is no solution that will work long-term without maintenance at present, and any form of maintenance is tricky and costly in a strong tidal stream. The problem is very difficult - the biology of fouling is extremely complex, involving organisms from almost every phylum under the sun (or under the sea!) - even chordates (our distant relatives!) have a look in - sea squirts are chordates, strange though it may seem! And the biofilm that underlies it all is vastly complex and variable. What kills one lot is food for another (we see this with ultrasound, where it is reported that it is effective on barnacles but ineffective on sea squirts), so only very broad-spectrum poisons like copper can be effective - and they're only effective for as long as there's some left; hence the regular task of antifouling! Foul release coatings are relatively fragile, so not suited to a harsh environment such as the blades of a turbine.

Realistically, tidal barrages with multiple fixed turbines that can be housed in a manner that allows routine maintenance (like the turbines in a hydro power station) is the best option. But that comes with vast capital and environmental costs. The problem with the latter is that the environmental cost is not readily determined - what is good for some species is bad for others, so it is a matter of the entire ecology of an area, not its impact on a single species.
 
50 years ago, huge offshore wind farms presented monumental engineering and logistical challenges. We solved the challenges because we wanted to.

We could, and should, be the world’s leading country in the development and manufacture of tidal electric power. It’s just that we don’t want to be enough in order to overcome the engineering challenges.
 
Otter said:
50 years ago, huge offshore wind farms presented monumental engineering and logistical challenges. We solved the challenges because we wanted to.

We could, and should, be the world’s leading country in the development and manufacture of tidal electric power. It’s just that we don’t want to be enough in order to overcome the engineering challenges.
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The problem isn't engineering, it's biology. And I have seen the research going into solving the problem and it's definitely NOT a solved problem. Marine fouling is a major economic concern; if it could be solved by engineering it would have been. The research going on is at the bleeding edge of genomics, to try and determine fundamental biological pathways that can be attacked to stop organisms from colonising a surface. But it isn't there yet.
 
Otter said:
50 years ago, huge offshore wind farms presented monumental engineering and logistical challenges. We solved the challenges because we wanted to.

We could, and should, be the world’s leading country in the development and manufacture of tidal electric power. It’s just that we don’t want to be enough in order to overcome the engineering challenges.
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The question is as much about money as will-power. Wind-power is only a stop-gap solution to tide us over until something better comes along, such as solar or fusion power. Possibly thorium reactors will also help fill the gap too. Money also equates to energy and to waste money on failed tidal schemes is actually making the situation worse, as is any unduly expensive system, because money is also needed for important purposes such as research and mitigating work such as building better-insulated houses, though how we cope with the American addiction to air-conditioning I don't know.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
The problem isn't engineering, it's biology. And I have seen the research going into solving the problem and it's definitely NOT a solved problem. Marine fouling is a major economic concern; if it could be solved by engineering it would have been. The research going on is at the bleeding edge of genomics, to try and determine fundamental biological pathways that can be attacked to stop organisms from colonising a surface. But it isn't there yet.
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Very interesting. Thanks. I assume there are already plenty of brains on this already as commercial shipping no doubt lose efficiency with fouling. Maybe one day someone will come up with a solution.
 
The uk must be hugely interesting as a location for power self sufficiency. What with solar, wind, tidal rise and tidal flow, rivers, sea water cooling.

As well as extraction and burning.

I think we are getting there.
And perhaps in working out how to keep underwater turbines functioning, yacht hulls will get less fouling via trickle down technology!
Oh how I wish 🤞🤞
 
Tidal power is working and delivering.
I can virtually guarantee that there'll be no diver involvement at all, it'll be engineered out. Working in a high current area with a man blowing bubbles isn't good. I believe that the maintenance is carried out above surface when the 'turbines' are raised, or inside if there's an electrical issue. Anything more serious might require a return to harbour, with the unit being disconnected, again relatively simple to engineer, and wet storing all the stuff that remains on site. Once the repair's done, 'simply' hook it all back up.
Much of the technique for this is identical to oil & gas underwater ops, and wind turbine installation, which I've done quite a bit of, but not on tidal power.
In my experience (as a person quite far down the food chain) of this stuff, the 'KISS' principal, from top to bottom, worked well.
Rugged and simple, with as much 'off the shelf' thought as possible.
 
Otter said:
50 years ago, huge offshore wind farms presented monumental engineering and logistical challenges. We solved the challenges because we wanted to.

We could, and should, be the world’s leading country in the development and manufacture of tidal electric power. It’s just that we don’t want to be enough in order to overcome the engineering challenges.
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Yes. We made a choice about 40 years ago to pour R&D into wind power and not into tidal. Thus we now have wind power which works reasonably well. Money is going into tidal now but the R&D is decades behind where it could have been.
No problem is insoluble given a large enough budget.
 
Biggles Wader said:
Yes. We made a choice about 40 years ago to pour R&D into wind power and not into tidal. Thus we now have wind power which works reasonably well. Money is going into tidal now but the R&D is decades behind where it could have been.
No problem is insoluble given a large enough budget.
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I might be wrong about this but “we” didnt really invest very much in wind R&D did we? We let the Dane’s do it and then wondered why all the industry for making windmills was outside the UK. I think we’ve been doing the same on Tidal - hoping someone else would provide a solution when there could have been a real long-term strategic investment.
 
ylop said:
I might be wrong about this but “we” didnt really invest very much in wind R&D did we? We let the Dane’s do it and then wondered why all the industry for making windmills was outside the UK. I think we’ve been doing the same on Tidal - hoping someone else would provide a solution when there could have been a real long-term strategic investment.
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By "we" I mean all of us in the developed world. As for your general point about UK industrial investment-----You may well think that but I couldn't possibly comment.
 
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