Non-UK-mainstream boats: Buying in Europe?

Agree with PYB , having gone through the IT system .
Additionally I did not pay any deposit until after the sea trial , but that was more boot on the other foot as I wanted that boat , to secure the deal .
Just offer to pay for the diesel , for me that gesture was refused , build up a rapport with the broker ask for more pics , tell him you are flying in , get him to arrange airport pick up drop off etc .
Theres some threads on here “ buying a boat in Italy “

There might be an issue with transport as they dont truck big boats in IT normally.
The method is you sail to the SoF a place like La Rague for haul out and put on a truck .
Again think of the up sides .
-jolly jaunt
-get t know the boat
-get a return load

I,am sure there could be plenty of volunteers who know the waters to assist .

So narrow down Italy from Liguria to Naples.
Naples is a 2 day trip ...... :)
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
The Italian system is the same. You have all history on the blue book. Actually its better then British as you have to ask for a research if I remember well to know all the ownership. A research by a good house is not cheap say Edminston. I know they asked me 5000 once for a history on a British boat.
In the Italian blue book (libretto) you have everything, and all ownership history of the boat under Italian ownership and before.
After that and after survey you ask for a Null Osta, which is research if the boat has any calls, encumbrances etc etc.
This takes about two weeks, after nulla osta is out, you can meet at a notary (or cheaper public office) and do the Bill of Sale or transfer of ownership. Also remember one thing that a notary or a public office is a man of the state having the same credentials as for example a solicitor has in the UK.
The Italian system is actually much better and safer then British Part.1 let alone part.3 registry. Just because you do not understand a system it does not mean it is bad.
The Italian system is not cheap with notary it is about and the tax it is comes about 1500 to 2500 euros depends how big the boat. The deletion then is issued free, some brokers charge for this other do not.
The Italian system is like suspicious when it is natante small boat under ten meters registered. There you have to be a bit more careful, as after the first ownership some documentation usually gets lost.
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Just about everything is safer than the british system for boat buying so that isn’t saying much.

But I have observed friends losing non trivial amounts of money on a boat (>10m) purchase in Italy because people were, in my non legal opinion, corrupt.

I have also been to court in Italy. On a separate matter and as witness not a defendant I must stress.

There were 2 defendants and one was the Italian state.Proceedings were expected to last 4 years!

If anyone thinks the British court system is frustrating then never go to court in Italy.

I would never attempt to buy a boat in Italy. Full stop.
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
In the Italian blue book (libretto)
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Haha, it shows that you are used to deal with Italians, W.
The document you are referring to is actually called "licenza" (di navigazione), not libretto.
I guess you must have heard many IT boaters referring to it as libretto, but it's a wrong habit.
Probably due to the fact that the comparable document for cars is indeed called libretto. :)
 
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Elessar said:
I would never attempt to buy a boat in Italy. Full stop.
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Your call, and as such very respectable.
But in the last decade, for buying used boats Italy has been the best place on earth - bar none.
Things are changing since a couple of years, but only because all the best opportunities out there have already been grabbed - and mostly by foreigners.
Otoh, I agree that there's plenty of crooks, in this industry.
Don't get me started on naming others that I came across outside Italy, though...
 
PalmaTarga said:
this may be of interest, a rare Fairline model. The owner os on the Fairline Owners page on FB, it's a well loved and maintained boat.
Fairline Phantom 43AC | eBay
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Yes I'm a member of that FB group, have seen it, might be a possible but it's another one where the intersection of age, looks, size and cost don't add up for me. I'm in Malta in March so if it's still around I'll maybe go and have a look.
 
Well. I've obviously not been to look at that Cranchi but IMHO based on the photos in the listing, it's not in fantastic condition. The Broker's hyperbole speaks volumes... "SIMPLY STUNNING CONDITION SHE HAS BEEN TOTALLY TREASURED BY HER CURRENT OWNER. HAVING INSPECTED HER PERSONALLY I CAN VOUCH FOR HER PRISTINE CONDITION." (I've fixed his typos). The photos say otherwise.

So this illustrates my problem quite well.
 
Scala said:
Well. I've obviously not been to look at that Cranchi but IMHO based on the photos in the listing, it's not in fantastic condition. The Broker's hyperbole speaks volumes... "SIMPLY STUNNING CONDITION SHE HAS BEEN TOTALLY TREASURED BY HER CURRENT OWNER. HAVING INSPECTED HER PERSONALLY I CAN VOUCH FOR HER PRISTINE CONDITION." (I've fixed his typos). The photos say otherwise.

So this illustrates my problem quite well.
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I might not be the most discerning boat buyer, but to me, for a near 20 year old boat it looks in great condition (in the photos).
Lighting could be a lot better, but I certainly didn't pick out any major issues.
 
James L said:
I might not be the most discerning boat buyer, but to me, for a near 20 year old boat it looks in great condition (in the photos).
Lighting could be a lot better, but I certainly didn't pick out any major issues.
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Must admit I was thinking the same but having not picked up the condition of the Phantom on with NYA from my quick look at the particulars I was keeping sthum! ;)

I also think that not considering the Phantom 43AC might be dismissing what could be a very good option - all personal taste and thoughts of course but they are pretty good boats and with the aft cabin absolutely palatial when compared with a hardtop sports cruiser or flybridge of the same size. Usual Fairline quality and well within budget. To my mind condition is more relevant than age. Our Broom 41 was a ‘92 boat and was truly superb.
.

.
 
James L said:
I might not be the most discerning boat buyer, but to me, for a near 20 year old boat it looks in great condition (in the photos).
Lighting could be a lot better, but I certainly didn't pick out any major issues.
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Likewise here! Is the problem that Scala was just a couple of years old and Graham is expecting perfection from a close to 20 year old boat?
 
Scala said:
All of which contribute to my nervousness about this idea... :) Hence (partly anyway) my Q. Is it a good assumption that a broker that is associated with a manufacturer eg, Sunseeker Brokerage, or Argo (Princess) are any more reliable / trustworthy / helpful than Joe Broker?
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I have bought two boats in Spain, both through local brokers. However I made it very clear that no deposit would be made until after the sea trial. Once I was happy, then we examined the contracts, survey etc. I did agree to a holding deposit once I said I would buy the boat to take it off sale, but that was @ 1% of the value.
I tried buying a Spanish based boat through a UK broker based in the Lincolnshire area who insisted on 10% deposit. I explained I would be driving 300 miles each way in Spain and staying overnight etc etc. "no deposit - no sea trial" I politely declined. A few weeks later he phoned me up - was I still interested. No, I had subsequently bought a boat and was no longer interested. Why do UK brokers insist on this 10% farce? Better- why do UK buyers tolerate it?
 
Scala said:
The photos say otherwise.
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I can second the other contrary views: also to me she looks pretty well maintained.
Scala, just in case you thought that the somewhat folded leather of the sofas looked shabby, actually that's how they came from the factory.
You can like it or not obviously, but don't take that as indication of wear.
Btw, I know that Cranchi model pretty well, and while I wouldn't rank her among the best efforts of IT boatbuilding in her size/category, she's a reasonably solid and "honest" boat, anyway.
 
James L said:
I might not be the most discerning boat buyer, but to me, for a near 20 year old boat it looks in great condition (in the photos). Lighting could be a lot better, but I certainly didn't pick out any major issues.
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Switch said:
Looks pretty good to me too.
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Well I appreciate that expectations may well differ from others. But in those photos (and they are shockingly poor quality) I see soiled leather, sagging linings, a filthy icemaker, the engines have surface rust and no signs of new service parts / filters / hoses, teak looks worn out. If the broker had said, "Generally well maintained but would benefit from a full valet and interior refurb" (or whatever) then fair enough, but the use of words like pristine, treasured, stunning are just wrong.

All IMHO of course.
 
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Greg2 said:
...I also think that not considering the Phantom 43AC might be dismissing what could be a very good option - all personal taste and thoughts of course but they are pretty good boats and with the aft cabin absolutely palatial when compared with a hardtop sports cruiser or flybridge of the same size. Usual Fairline quality and well within budget. To my mind condition is more relevant than age. Our Broom 41 was a ‘92 boat and was truly superb.
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Yes I haven't discounted it.
 
maby said:
Likewise here! Is the problem that Scala was just a couple of years old and Graham is expecting perfection from a close to 20 year old boat?
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Well, I hope I can see past that. Scala we bought new, I can afford a new mobo if we stick to a 30' outboard powered one. Not really what I want.

Not likely to find perfection in any used boat but I'd like to find something big enough, that has been loved and cared for, at a sensible price. That's it really, seems a normal thing to ask for but I'm not having much luck :)
 
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