Non Return Valve for heads?

[Norman_E]

In common with many boats my heads have holding tanks fitted into lockers above and behind them. In my case the top of the tank is about 5 feet above the base of the Jabsco toilet, which means that as the outlet 38mm pipe from the pump goes to the top of the tank there is always a head of water trying to get back through the joker valve. the result is that water slowly flows back into the bowl. The twist and lock pump may be supposed to stop that but it does not, partly because locking it down actually distorts the flap valve and increases the rate of inflow. I have lost count of the number of new joker valves I have fitted, some leak immediately, others last a month or so.

My plan is to install a non return valve into the pipe just after the heads outlet. The question is what type? Has anyone done this? The choices appear to be the spring loaded brass type, or the Jabsco flap type. Given the "performance" of the Jabsco toilet valves I wonder if the latter is any use at all. My concern over the spring loaded type is whether one might put excessive load on the pump, or just become clogged.

 

[duncan99210]

The water in the pipe work can be pumped through into the tank by increasing the number of pumps after the bowl is empty. I seem to recall Jabsco suggesting something like 7 pumps per metre of pipe..... That'd mean you wouldn't need to fit a non return valve, which is essentially what the joker valve is anyway, so any problems with the joker valve will simply be repeated with a non return valve but possibly not as easy to get to.

 

[Heckler]

In common with many boats my heads have holding tanks fitted into lockers above and behind them. In my case the top of the tank is about 5 feet above the base of the Jabsco toilet, which means that as the outlet 38mm pipe from the pump goes to the top of the tank there is always a head of water trying to get back through the joker valve. the result is that water slowly flows back into the bowl. The twist and lock pump may be supposed to stop that but it does not, partly because locking it down actually distorts the flap valve and increases the rate of inflow. I have lost count of the number of new joker valves I have fitted, some leak immediately, others last a month or so.

My plan is to install a non return valve into the pipe just after the heads outlet. The question is what type? Has anyone done this? The choices appear to be the spring loaded brass type, or the Jabsco flap type. Given the "performance" of the Jabsco toilet valves I wonder if the latter is any use at all. My concern over the spring loaded type is whether one might put excessive load on the pump, or just become clogged.

The joker valves fail when little bits of "stuff" carbonate type stuff, stick to the inside of the flaps and hold them slightly open. Dont buy new ones, just remove and clean in hot soapy water! Works for me, usually every couple of months. Its due now, the bowl is starting to fill up!
S

 

[David2452]

I have on several occasions used the Whale LV215 with success on some pretty big lifts, these have all been with macerator WCs and fresh water though so cannot speak for raw water and or manual WCs. Either that or very regularly change / clean the joker.

 

[theoldsalt]

Back flow into the bowl is caused by a faulty joker valve whether or not a holding tank is fitted. Clean the joker and if that does't solve the problem fit a new one.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Back flow into the bowl is caused by a faulty joker valve whether or not a holding tank is fitted. Clean the joker and if that does't solve the problem fit a new one.

<polite cough>

I have lost count of the number of new joker valves I have fitted, some leak immediately, others last a month or so.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have been contemplating the use of a mildly abrasive, ecologically acceptable material to remove the salts that prevent a joker valve from closing properly, along the lines of crushed walnut shells and rice that are used to clean the compressor stage of gas turbines. I think I shall try a handful of white sugar when next the bowl fills with smelly water and if this seems to dissolve before doing any work, maybe something less soluble such as salt. I suspect that rice may be too coarse and will block the valve.

However, I do find that hydrochloric acid is effective most times.

 

[rogerthebodger]

However, I do find that hydrochloric acid is effective most times.

I agree with that as my henderson pump on my Lavac was back pumping through the flapper valve and a dose of hydrochloric acid fixed it PDQ.

The only problem was that is also loosened some build up in the pipes to the seacock which broke off 2 months later and blocked the seacock that resulted in a complete strip down.

So be aware of unintended consequences.

 

[Halo]

Why not bite the bulet and fit a ball valve. The one on my head outfall copes with all the detritis and seals nicely. Its another valve to operate but perhaps you could fit some sort of mechanism to keep it all local to the head.

 

[Norman_E]

The water in the pipe work can be pumped through into the tank by increasing the number of pumps after the bowl is empty. I seem to recall Jabsco suggesting something like 7 pumps per metre of pipe..... That'd mean you wouldn't need to fit a non return valve, which is essentially what the joker valve is anyway, so any problems with the joker valve will simply be repeated with a non return valve but possibly not as easy to get to.

It does not matter how many times you pump, the pipe rising up from the toilet to the tank will remain full, and water will then flow back. I like the idea of a ball valve, but it would need to have a remote handle, and I have not found a suitable one.

 

[pvb]

I like the idea of a ball valve, but it would need to have a remote handle, and I have not found a suitable one.

Hallberg-Rassy fit a ball valve with a type of remote handle on some of their boats. You can buy one online at http://www.hr-parts.com/contents/en-us/p173.html

 

[Norman_E]

Skr775 is about £61, but it does give me an idea for an extended valve shaft.

 

[Chris_Robb]

It does not matter how many times you pump, the pipe rising up from the toilet to the tank will remain full, and water will then flow back. I like the idea of a ball valve, but it would need to have a remote handle, and I have not found a suitable one.

Norman, I am assuming that you can also pump to the sea by changing the diverter to/ the tank/sea. In which case, the 38mm outlet pipe will go in a big loop to to the deck head before coming down again.
If pumping to the sea, when the volume of water pumped is not critical, you should pump sufficient number of times that all the dirty water is expelled from the pipe. Then only clean water drains back to the loo. This has the added benefit that you get no calcite deposits in the pipe as there is no urea left to react with the seawater, and also the water left standing in the pipe will not gradually diffuse through the pipes to make them permanently smell.

If pumping to the tank than obviously you cannot pump so much. So perhaps once you have done 12 pumps to the tank, you can switch over to the sea and pump for england. The number of times to pump of course depends on the length of your pipes.

 

[dnickj]

Hi i have found that is also worth checking the flap valve at the bottom of the pump !

 

[Boo2]

I agree with that as my henderson pump on my Lavac was back pumping through the flapper valve and a dose of hydrochloric acid fixed it PDQ.

Has anyone here tried vinegar (ascetic acid) instead of hydrochloric acid ? I ask because I have some...

Boo2

 

[Dougal]

All I ever use IS vinigar. Works a treat

Has anyone here tried vinegar (ascetic acid) instead of hydrochloric acid ? I ask because I have some...

Boo2

 

[vyv_cox]

Has anyone here tried vinegar (ascetic acid) instead of hydrochloric acid ? I ask because I have some...

Boo2

See this thread http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?440175-Holding-tank-calcium-deposits

 

[vyv_cox]

Why not bite the bulet and fit a ball valve. The one on my head outfall copes with all the detritis and seals nicely. Its another valve to operate but perhaps you could fit some sort of mechanism to keep it all local to the head.

One of the consequences of the imperfect life that we lead is that some day someone is going to try to empty the toilet without opening the valve first. The joker valve will invert and if it cannot be oersuaded to adopt the correct position some unlucky person, usually the skipper on our boat, will have to dismantle to repair.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have been contemplating the use of a mildly abrasive, ecologically acceptable material to remove the salts that prevent a joker valve from closing properly, along the lines of crushed walnut shells and rice that are used to clean the compressor stage of gas turbines. I think I shall try a handful of white sugar when next the bowl fills with smelly water and if this seems to dissolve before doing any work, maybe something less soluble such as salt. I suspect that rice may be too coarse and will block the valve.

How much rice do you have to eat first& do you mix it with the shells or eat it separately.

 

[RichardS]

In common with many boats my heads have holding tanks fitted into lockers above and behind them. In my case the top of the tank is about 5 feet above the base of the Jabsco toilet, which means that as the outlet 38mm pipe from the pump goes to the top of the tank there is always a head of water trying to get back through the joker valve. the result is that water slowly flows back into the bowl. The twist and lock pump may be supposed to stop that but it does not, partly because locking it down actually distorts the flap valve and increases the rate of inflow. I have lost count of the number of new joker valves I have fitted, some leak immediately, others last a month or so.

My plan is to install a non return valve into the pipe just after the heads outlet. The question is what type? Has anyone done this? The choices appear to be the spring loaded brass type, or the Jabsco flap type. Given the "performance" of the Jabsco toilet valves I wonder if the latter is any use at all. My concern over the spring loaded type is whether one might put excessive load on the pump, or just become clogged.

I know you've discounted the twist and lock system but in my experience after two seasons with two toilets it works perfectly at stopping backflow whereas the joker valve is not reliable. We also have a 1 metre head into the top of the holding tank and, as you say, pumping air does not push it over.

Have you fitted a twist and lock flap valve as well as the t&l handle? The flap valve is thick and hard and larger than the hole below it so I can't see any way that it could distort under the slight pressure from the handle unless something is wrong with the valve e.g. a broken or bent metal disk inside the rubber or something worng with the hole in the plastic e.g. crack in the surface or some distortion in the flat sealing surface.

As I say, ours seal perfectly with absolutely no maintenance at all.

Richard