Non Boaty - The Spaniards Cargreen

[T_C]

This pub is probably known to a fair few of you based in the West Country. For those that don't know it, it's on the edge of the River Tamar and is a popular destination for all sorts of boaty people. It's in an Area of Oustanding Natural Beauty and Conservation Area.
I have received a letter from the local planning dept. stating that the owners have applied for change of use to residential, ie they want to close the pub and convert it into a residential property. IMHO I doubt it would stop there with a large waterfront car park that would be no longer required, great development potential....
Closing the only remaining pub in the village would, IMHO, rip the heart out of the place so I was wondering whether there was anyone out there (there must be!) who can suggest legitimate tactics for opposing such an application.

Any relevant thoughts/advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jhr]

It probably sounds a bit simplistic to say "object to the application" but that's the first step. On the whole, Planning Committees don't like pubs being closed down, especially when it's the only one available in a particular village or community but they may have little choice if nobody objects. Anything that can be done to publicise the case and cause a rumpus will be helpful - councillors don't like appearing in the Press in a negative light, particular if there are connotations of removal of facilities or defacing lovely spots. Also, talk to the Planning Officer and find out what s/he thinks about it; the Council may not be keen on the idea either.

Doesn't James Jermain keep his boat down there? - he might be able to advise about media strategies etc.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[longjohnsilver]

That would be a shame, have only been there once with hlb on his boat, good food and beer and great to be able to moor up alongside.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Twister_Ken]

One reason that pubs are sold of for residential is because they are not viable businesses judged by normal commercial criteria. In these circumstances there are examples of pubs that have been kept 'in commission' by being bought by a co-operative of locals, people who are not expecting to make a living out of the pub, and don't have a target ROI to meet. Other methods have included things like putting a sub-PO into a pub, or combining a pub with a village shop. In this case one avenue to explore might be to see whether a local sailing club or boatyard might want to use it as an HQ and pub.

Googling with an search term like "save village pub" should turn up lots of examples.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[summerwind]

Having had some experience sitting on a planning committee I have been on the receiving end of the following effective ploys:

1) Get organised. You need as many names as you can possibly get on a petition. Doesn't matter if they are locals, just get the signatures. Plymouth shopping centre on a Sat afternoon is a good strategy. "Save our village by signing here."

2) Go to the pub at a busy time about an hour before closing time. Get as many quotes from the customers as you can. Don't bother about the landlord - he is either on the opposite side or under too much pressure to help.

3) Once you have the above under way, contact the local newspaper. Make it easy for them to help. Give them photos of full car park, tiers of yachts tied to quay, moored close to pub etc, tears of drinkers devastated at closure of pub.

4) Discover names, addresses and telephone numbers of members of planning committee. Town hall MUST give them to you. Bombard them with letters from members of your campaign. NOT THE SAME LETTER SIGNED BY DOZENS!!!!! Have campaigners telephone them at home in the evenings - very worrying and a bloody pest.

5) Tell the newspaper that your campaign will attend the planning meeting and will present your petition to the chairman at the meeting. Ask if their photographer will be present or will you supply your own. The mere problem of dealing with the photograph in the committee room will put great pressure on the chairman right from the start. The presence of the newsapaper's hot-shot reporter, that all of the committee will know, will increase the pressure.

6) Get some preferably good looking, under dressed, middle aged women to plonk a propaganda pack in front of each member of the committee just as the wrangle between the chairman and the photographer are going on.

7) Talk about the loss of traditional village life, urban sprawl, concrete eyesores, profiteering by big developers to the detriment of the local economy. New developments will be for rich southern migrants moving into the area and pricing out the locally born youngsters. Don't be too shy about pouring on the bullshit. We've lost our post office. We've lost our bus service. Now we are going to lose our pub. Cost of rural living is high. Wages are low etc etc. bang on about "Area of outstanding beauty, conservation area etc. The newspaper will love it, but the reporters are lazy buggers. You have to keep after them and do the work for them. Write reports that they can "edit" and call their own, if you wait for them to do it, it won't happen.

Above all else, keep up the pressure. The system hopes that after the first or second adjournment of the decision, you will get tired and allow them to pass the application.

Good luck



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[T_C]

Many thanks, especially Summerwind, for the very constructive advice, let's see what we can do.......

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Cornishman]

Oh! Dear. While I agree with your outline strategy, in this case you might find it a bit difficult.
I live not far away from the 'pub in question and have known it for about 25 years. It is my belief that the present owners have slowly allowed it to run down either deliberately or through incompetence to the point where it is indeed no longer viable.
>Go to the pub at a busy time.< You might have to wait a few weeks.
>Get as many quotes from the customers as you can< What customers? - even only a few of the locals drink there these days.
>Photos of a full car park< You might have to go to the local archives to find one
>tiers of yachts tied to the quay, etc< You'll be lucky!
The pub, by the way, changed its name to The Crooked Spaniards a few years ago, and the local opinion then was that it was quite an appropriate change. I understand that the new owners had quite a job to mollify the Spanish Ambassador to the Court of St James.
There is a yacht club at Cargreen, so somebody might ask them if they think it would be worthwhile saving the pub. It's a long time ago since it could be called the centre of that village's life, I'm sorry to say.
IMHO Anybody objecting to the application on the grounds you suggest would be fighting a losing battle.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ownership?

Is it brewery owned, or owner-landlord?

Seems odd to someone who doesn't know the place, because usually waterside pubs attract drinkers/diners like flies.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[T_C]

Re: Ownership?

Ken,
Owner - landlord

Whilst I might agree with the sentiment of a lot of what Cornishman says, there are more than a handful of locals who use it, myself being one occasionally.The car park is often full, so the punters park in the road, at HW there is nearly always some vessel moored on the quay. The next nearest hostelry is an hour or so walk so yes, I do still believe that it would detrimental to the village.

All IMHO of course

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jamesjermain]

My front door in Cargreen is 20ft away from the front door of The Crooked Spaniard. It is true that the owners (private) have applied to turn the pub into a residential site. They recently applied to build a small estate on the car park which was turned down. At that time I was told by the owner's son-in-law 'If the village object to this they won't have a pub in a year's time'.

I can assure readers that there is a very active group in the village organising objections etc. We have already been in touch with them.

It is true that a large number of locals buoycot the pub which prefers to deal with large parties such as weddings and evening dinner parties. Nevertheless, the right owner with the right attidude and jovial 'mine host' nature would make a very good go of the place. The car park is invariably full at weekends, even in the winter and there are up to half a dozen boats on moorings or alongside on summer weekend evenings, particularly if the flood and high tide coincide with mid-evening.

So far the planners have rejected every attempt to develop this site and I hope asnd believe this will fail too. It would be a disaster for the village and remove one of the main reasons why we decided to move down here in the first place.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[andy_wilson]

Damn Damn Damn!

There we are I thought, holed up in a peaceful backwater, rolling contryside to contrast with the mud flats and only the power lines to spoil the view.

The reality is within 2 days I find we are moored amidst a civil war of locals, visitors, planning officers and property speculators and the best looking pub on the reach is being steadily run into the ground and certainly doesn't offer the welcome we were hoping for.

Where's the next best quayside pub then?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Cornishman]

Yes, James, but when the car park is full who are the people in the pub? Like you say, dinner/wedding etc parties, although an esteemed neighbour of yours told me that once at your table the staff seem to lose all interest and very people pay the place a second visit. It will need more than the few yachts which call when the tide serves, which is not all that often, to make it a really great waterside pub. And what about the winter?
The problem is that it is privately owned and while you reckon that the 'right' person to run it might make it a success I cannot see the present owners putting him/her in there to do it. From what I hear nepotism rules. So, you will have to persuade the owner to sell, but from what I hear he is unlikely to do so if there is any chance he can convert it.

Good luck to you, 'cos I would love to see it throbbing one day.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Chris_Robb]

The Three Horse shoes in Thursley (nr Guildford) has gone through the same process - only pub in Village etc. Lobbying by the villagers made the council refuse a change in use. But they still have no pub - but the owner cannot sell.

In your case - without change of use - he could not sell - therefore no development.

A difficult one - good luck - we were looking at buying a house in the car green area so this is very disappointing.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[oldgit]

Would it be to cheeky to suggest that you and other objectors in the village put you hands in your pockets and buy him out.Or does this opposition amount only to preventing someone else making some money and high tailing out of the place./forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>Two boats please one here n one in the Med

 

[Cornishman]

Re: Damn Damn Damn!

Saltash

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[jamesjermain]

Problem is that by dint of some ill considered expansions and additions, this is actually now a very large establishment with a fair bit of land and river frontage. The cost would be very high and it would be difficult to pursuade a bank that a village buy-out would actually work. It grieves me to say so, and I won't accept it until I am proved wrong, but Cornishman might have a point.

<hr width=100% size=1>JJ

 

[Indalo]

I called in for the first time earlier this summer, arrived Saturday lunchtime and stopped overnight. The pub was very busy, car park fairly full, and the 3 visitors' buoys were quickly doubled up. The bar staff at least were very welcoming, and the food was good. I'd have thought it would be very easy to make viable. A pity - I was hoping to return next year.

Other suggestions for moor-alongside: Pandora Inn at Restronguet (R Fal), Steam Packet at Totnes, and Maltsters Arms at Tuckenhay (R Dart). All are drying berths.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[maxxi]

After the meal that they provided to us in July this year, executive chef and all, the demise of the Spaniard will probably be loss at all. sorry.

<hr width=100% size=1>