maby
Well-Known Member
How hard is it to convince whoever makes the decision to let you have an old fashioned conventional boiler fitted? Ours is showing its age and I dread the disruption that it will imply to have one of these new toys fitted.
NON BOATY Qu about condensate drain from new boiler
- Thread starter VicS
- Start date
maxi77
Well-Known Member
There is nothing wrong with the boilers, The one in our present house was only replaced because we wanted it in another position. The real problem is slapdash cheapskate installers who hope to be long gone before you find out just how bad their workmanship was. My boiler survived the cold winter with no problems because it was properly installed.
maby
Well-Known Member
I was more concerned with the difficulty of retrofitting the drain pipe. Our boiler is on the first floor with no external drain pipes anywhere nearby. It is in a kitchen but, once again, quite a long way from the sink with easy access to drain pipes. Some plumber is going to have to make a terrible mess of our fitted kitchen to swap that ruddy boiler.
VicMallows
Well-Known Member
I did start to look into this. The official wording is 'where not reasonably practicable' and would seem to be mainly down to getting an amenable registered installer to agree that it is 'impracticable' . My (heavy, cast iron, totally reliable 43 year old) boiler was located in a position where it was impossible to provide a suitable flue for a condensing boiler.
I decided that I DID want a top-of-the-range condensing boiler, but was equally determined for aesthetic reasons that I would not accept a flue -with the inevitable plume - sticking out of the front of the house. Result was a lot of plumbing effort! A year on I am very pleased with the new boiler, but it certainly took a lot of playing with the boiler program parameters (user adjustable) to achieve optimum performance .....not aided by appallingly written, (and often factually wrong) installation instructions.
One point to consider: if your old boiler is somewhere like a kitchen and you are used to the background 'waste' heat from it, you may well need to add a radiator to the room! .... the modern boilers put out practically no residual heat.
Just to return to the original post: my condensate drain is plumbed into the main internal plastic stack pipe only 1m away from the boiler
VicMallows
Well-Known Member
You have considered a pumped condensate drain?
maby
Well-Known Member
I did start to look into this. The official wording is 'where not reasonably practicable' and would seem to be mainly down to getting an amenable registered installer to agree that it is 'impracticable' . My (heavy, cast iron, totally reliable 43 year old) boiler was located in a position where it was impossible to provide a suitable flue for a condensing boiler.
I decided that I DID want a top-of-the-range condensing boiler, but was equally determined for aesthetic reasons that I would not accept a flue -with the inevitable plume - sticking out of the front of the house. Result was a lot of plumbing effort! A year on I am very pleased with the new boiler, but it certainly took a lot of playing with the boiler program parameters (user adjustable) to achieve optimum performance .....not aided by appallingly written, (and often factually wrong) installation instructions.
One point to consider: if your old boiler is somewhere like a kitchen and you are used to the background 'waste' heat from it, you may well need to add a radiator to the room! .... the modern boilers put out practically no residual heat.
Just to return to the original post: my condensate drain is plumbed into the main internal plastic stack pipe only 1m away from the boiler
That's a relief - looks like I need to find an installer who is open to persuasion in the form of a bottle of decent Scotch!
maby
Well-Known Member
I would far prefer a nice shiny new old fashioned boiler!
Habebty
Well-Known Member
I have heard of trace heating being fitted to these drain pipes to keep the temp at +1 or 2deg.
Danbury
Well-Known Member
Just to add... don't forget that Gas Safe are only obliged legally, to take membership fees from installers... nothing more... you really need to involve the HSE who have the teeth to make things happen. Although the report from Gas Safe would be a useful start point.
If I were you... I'd get hold of a copy of the installation instructions that came with the boiler, usually downloadable from the web, and read about how it should be installed... it's all very straightforwardly written. Then you can list all the points that are incorrect and challenge the installer/Gas Safe inspector with them.
Danbury
Well-Known Member
I hope your new one lasts as well!
To be fair, most issues I've heard of or seen seem to have been failed and obsolete parts or issues due to poor installation. I guess this is a consequence of changing technology and sadly improving efficiency invariably seems to involve some overly complex and more fickle design.
I went to look at one for a friend a few years back as she couldn't afford to fix and wanted an idea of repair cost. I should state that I'm not a gas installer and whilst I wouldn't touch any part of the gas aspects, I am competent with both electrical and electronics so agreed to look and see if I could determine what was wrong and ensure she wasn't missing anything obvious. What I found horrified me as her house was a new build when she moved in and the installation was only around 30M old. Firstly, the vent pipe had been 'modified' around an odd corner and actually sloped downhill through the wall to the boiler! Over time, rainwater appears to have seeped into the system - rusting parts to a state that I'd say was dangerous. There was an electrical earth in the boiler that was in place but not done up and the electrical supply was pulled tight around the CH return pipe (T&E not FP) and had gone brown with heat! There were a couple of other minor issues I think, but can't recall the details. Her lack of heating was due to a faulty sensor, but my dilemma was that I couldn't fix that and effectively re-commission what was (IMHO) a dangerous installation. She did understand and took it up with the body that oversees new builds - accompanied by my findings. It was eventually fixed via a household insurance policy I think and they were aiming to recover costs from some building scheme or other. It was a shock to me that a professional installer could leave it in this state and even more so that seemingly nobody had checked? It was quite a large development and as far as know, they did them all. I understood that preventing this was the whole point of the Corgi scheme?
Thus the extra long pipe, lack of connection to drain and upward facing bit on the end in the OP's post don't actually surprise me in the slightest!
Technically speaking... it's illegal to touch any "gas appliances" whether or not you only touch the non-gas parts... even taking the cover off to check if you have power to the board would breach this law. You need to pay an annual fee to Gas Safe for the privilege ! (several hundred pounds !!)
Danbury
Well-Known Member
The problem with modern boilers is not so much the design or the installation... it's all the plastic parts inside... If you look inside a boiler from 20+ years ago, you'll see all sorts of brass parts that are properly made... not all the black plastic you get now, that splits and leaks ! So if you want a new boiler, have a look inside one first !
maby
Well-Known Member
Design and installation can be a significant problem when you are trying to retrofit a new boiler into an existing system. Our boiler was never intended to have a drain and it's not installed near any convenient outlet - they will either have to run a pipe a long way across a very visible external wall, or cause massive disruption to a fitted kitchen.
lw395
Well-Known Member
I considered doing that at my parents place.
In the end, it was possible to route more of the drain indoors instead.
I'm still not convinced it will be impossible for it to freeze where it enters the stack pipe.
The problem is, the condensate is a slow, continuous flow, if the air outside the stack pipe is cold enough, an icicle will form that will eventually block the drain.
Would probably take many days of well below zero now.
But you never find out until you get a cold enough winter period.
Giblets
Well-Known Member
The air rising up inside a stack/vent pipe (if connected to main drainage) is usually quite warm so freezing is unlikely at point of condensate entry.
Most modern boilers discharge the condensate in a slug rather than a continuous trickle.
rbcoomer
Well-Known Member
Indeed - a commendable policy too if it ensured a standard of work. Alas it seems it doesn't, but it does allow the box tickers to claim they're clamping down on cowboy installers...
I installed our own boiler in a previous house and a friend who runs an approved maintenance company sent one of his guys to commission it - a win/win really and a good way to know the standard of the work. Usually they don't seem to like doing that, but electrical installations used to work the same way when the local 'board' would commission an installation.CJU
Well-Known Member
I think in certain circumstances it is possible to have a non condensing boiler fitted. It depends on the installation site fulfilling a number of requirements, one of which is disposing of condensate
earlybird
Well-Known Member
Worcester market a device called the Condensesure which is supposed to discharge the condensate in larger, slightly warmed volumes, to reduce the risk of freezing.
I've not tried it.
The pipe-run in the OP looks completely wrong to me.
I've not tried it.
The pipe-run in the OP looks completely wrong to me.
Giblets
Well-Known Member
The link in post #2 gives all the information on the installation (or not) of condensing boilers.
saltylegs
Well-Known Member
Only a very few of the early condensing boilers had a continuous flow discharge the standard for almost 20 years for most respected manufactures has been to fit some type of internal sump and siphon, so when a certain amount of condensate is collected it is all discharged in one "glug".
VicS
Well-Known Member
Looks wrong to me too which is why i posted the picture.
based on Mel's link in #2
The external pipe run is too long by about 2m
The fall is inadequate. It should be more than double what it is .
It should not be discharged to what is probably just a rain water drain to a soak-away
Clearly the upturned bit on the end is wrong but I suspect that is down to the bloke who refitted the down pipe a few days after the boiler installation.
I'd like to see what happens when condensate is discharged. I think its splashing all over the place including on the wall.
Going to have to try to have word ....... trouble is despite being next door we have very little contact with the lady.
Makes you wonder what's standard the rest of the installation. The "making good" around the flue terminal looks a bit of a bodge.