No vat receipt when buying - help please

[zambant]

In process of buting a sailing boat and have a significant problem suddenly raised its head.

Buying from the original owner who purchased the boat new in 2002.

His house burnt down - destroyed all paperwork including the original bill of sale.

The dealer who sold the boat went bust in 2007

What the hell do I do? He wont drop the price by 20%....

Really dont want to walk away but do want to take it to Europe ocassionally

Please....someone....help?!

John

 

[Norman_E]

Not much use now but the owner should have obtained a new VAT invoice from the dealer after his house burned down. Too late now and probably far to late to claim on his insurance. Either he drops the price to allow you to pay the VAT on the current value, or you should walk. I think we have established before on here that Customs and Revenue will not help you out with any proof of VAT payment.

 

[Retired in Crete]

Why not get the current owner to swear an affadavit in front of a solicitor that he purchased the boat new from xyz, paid VAT etc. Then go to a UK notary and get an Apostille affixed to it?

This would satisfy the Greek authorities but don't know about other EU states though, in theory, their requirements would be the same.

Does this help? If not I'm sure other suggestions will follow shortly

John

 

[Tranona]

Nothing you can do. The only record of VAT payment is the original invoice. The chances of HMRC pestering you to pay are just about zero if the original sale from the dealer was to a private individual as the responsibility for accounting for the VAT is with the dealer.

Equally the chances of you having any problem overseas is also extremely low as you will be able to show that you bought the boat in the UK so any VAT issues are nothing to do with any other state. If you have a complete record of the history of the boat with a Bill of Sale from the builder, one to the existing owner and the last to you there is no reason why any other state should try to get you to pay VAT. The only "nuisance" is that the lack of an invoice may raise eyebrows, but you will be in no different situation from many others.

This is well worn territory and does not seem to be any hard evidence the lack of an invoice creates any serious problems, unless there is evidence in the past that the boat was owned by a VAT registered business as a business asset or was imported from outside the EU.

 

[Tranona]

Not much use now but the owner should have obtained a new VAT invoice from the dealer after his house burned down. Too late now and probably far to late to claim on his insurance. Either he drops the price to allow you to pay the VAT on the current value, or you should walk. I think we have established before on here that Customs and Revenue will not help you out with any proof of VAT payment.

HMRC will not be able to charge him VAT unless there is a chargeable event - and buying from another EU resident is not one. Normally the only way an individual is liable to pay VAT direct to HMRC is if the boat is imported from outside the EU then the person importing is responsible for VAT.

 

[Retired in Crete]

unless there is evidence in the past that the boat was owned by a VAT registered business as a business asset or was imported from outside the EU.

Sorry to be a pain (I'm a newbie) but I am in this situation. I enjoyed the charter holiday so much I bought the boat! (from a VAT registered business.)

What are the implications of this?

John

 

[Tranona]

Funnily enough I am much the same - except I bought my boat new but title was with a Greek company to avoid paying VAT and operating as a charter boat. When title was transferred to me personally after we stopped chartering, the Greek company invoiced me with VAT added to the contract price, so I have a VAT receipt. You should have the same.

Normally Greek charter companies follow the rules closely and sell their non -VAT paid boats at an agreed price and add 23% (now) VAT. The total price should be comparable to that of a VAT paid boat bought privately.

 

[A1Sailor]

NO VAT receipt

The seller needs to provide the proof that VAT was originally paid - not you!
The RYA has lots of useful information on the subject available to its members.
You may care to seek the advice of HMRC - but if there is no proof that VAT was paid they may not be all that sympathetic.
HMRC numbers:
National Yacht Line: 0845 723 1110
National Advice Service: 0845 010 9000

Good Luck...


A1

Edit: sale of goods from one EU citizen to another is not a chargeable event - as Tranona states. Unless the seller can provide proof, VAT cannot be "deemed paid".

 

[Quandary]

Tranona's advice is sound, boats and all sorts of other second hand goods are traded every day without vat invoices. There are some here who have an irrational fear of the vat man, but why would you ever expect to hear from him? Most vat accounts are managed without any interference from HMRC who are happy to leave it to the trader to control, they tend to know who the scammers are and concentrate their attention there. Just make sure that your purchase documentation includes all the details so that if you ever happened to stand on a vat inspectors foot you can provide them and he then can go and talk to the vendor if he really feels inclined to.

 

[ithet]

I contacted the RYA when I bought my boat in 2007 (I do not have the original VAT invoice but do have a letter from the original supplier stating that VAT was paid). RYA advice was to be able to show foreign authorities that the boat is long term resident in the UK and thus any VAT question is an issue for HMRC (who will not be interested). To that end they recommended carrying a history of UK home berthing and harbour dues receipts. Fortunately my seller provided several years of these. I also keep my old harbour dues stickers stuck onto a card for further evidence.

Not had to test this in anger though, and probably further issues arise for a boat purchased or kept abroad.

 

[Ben Dockrell 22]

In process of buting a sailing boat and have a significant problem suddenly raised its head.

Buying from the original owner who purchased the boat new in 2002.

His house burnt down - destroyed all paperwork including the original bill of sale.

The dealer who sold the boat went bust in 2007

What the hell do I do? He wont drop the price by 20%....

Really dont want to walk away but do want to take it to Europe ocassionally

Please....someone....help?!

John

If he can ask his bank for his own account records of that time his "payment out" would be there to be seen or the withdrawal ?

Just a thought.


If he gives you an excuse about that id drop it as quickly as possible.

 

[Tranona]

If he can ask his bank for his own account records of that time his "payment out" would be there to be seen or the withdrawal ?

Just a thought.


If he gives you an excuse about that id drop it as quickly as possible.

That is no help at all. It is not the buyer's responsibility to account for VAT but the seller.

 

[photodog]

Hmmm.. I would be worried about complications on resale as well....

 

[Ben Dockrell 22]

In process of buting a sailing boat and have a significant problem suddenly raised its head.

Buying from the original owner who purchased the boat new in 2002.

His house burnt down - destroyed all paperwork including the original bill of sale.

The dealer who sold the boat went bust in 2007

What the hell do I do? He wont drop the price by 20%....

Really dont want to walk away but do want to take it to Europe ocassionally

Please....someone....help?!

John

Just as an idea ......

People who want to take a holiday somewhere esle in the world will sometimes join a website where they look for people they are happy about swapping thier homes with so each family gets the holiday experience with no or little money exchanging hands, they just pay thier fares to reach thier holiday swap homes.


So there is probably a website where boat owners can peruse the details of other boat owners and do a holiday boat swap for the experience ? Before anyone goes on about insurance that must also have been mentioned on such websites about swapping homes for a holiday ?

No worries about registration or vat.

Like i say just an idea though very probably already out there bobbing around.

 

[westernman]

Hmmm.. I would be worried about complications on resale as well....

Why? A bill of sale from a private individual is all you will ever need.

A real VAT receipt from customs is the most unconvincing piece of paperwork you can imagine - a pink slip which is a carbon copy of some handwritten stuff.
No recognizable signature nor reference number in order to trace it to some official records.

 

[photodog]

Why? A bill of sale from a private individual is all you will ever need.

A real VAT receipt from customs is the most unconvincing piece of paperwork you can imagine - a pink slip which is a carbon copy of some handwritten stuff.
No recognizable signature nor reference number in order to trace it to some official records.

Well.. He is worried about it and is asking for a big reduction.... Logic dictates that the next guy along may have the same reservations... In spite of what may or may not actually be required... The ability to prove the vat status of a yacht inthe uk seems to be something that peeps are keen on...

Its a percieved issue and as such is a barrier to a purchase...

 

[Quandary]

Well.. He is worried about it and is asking for a big reduction.... Logic dictates that the next guy along may have the same reservations... In spite of what may or may not actually be required... The ability to prove the vat status of a yacht inthe uk seems to be something that peeps are keen on...

Surely it is likely that by the time he goes to sell the boat common sense may have broken out.

 

[jimi]

I think if the Douane in France ask for paperwork and it does'nt exist then it could turn out to be rather more than a perceived problem. There must be some way for the C&E to provide paperwork .. or even the original manufacturer may have invoice copies?

 

[Ben Dockrell 22]

I wonder what payment method John used to pay the seller ?

How long ago was the sale ? you have at least 7 days cooling off ?

Did you buy it using a banking website ?

Was is bought on a card ?

Look at your means to get your money back if that is the only financial course open to you because you cant take the 20% hit ?

I am assuming some money has changed hands ?

If not then it may still be tempting to you but its in your best interests to see the circumstances could be a whole lot better than what you have from this seller.

I would give this one a miss and your going to thank-yourself later when you have your new boat.

 

[SimonD]

Its a percieved issue and as such is a barrier to a purchase...

Photodog is spot on. This is one of those occasions when reality is nothing, perception is everything. This issue arises often enough on this forum to show that many potential purchasers (the OP being one of them) perceive proof of VAT payment to be a necessity. The pool of potential buyers will be smaller than it otherwise would be if this proof cannot be provided.