No vat receipt when buying - help please

[jonic]

Just jumped from the foot of page 1 to the latest page here, so have missed out a lot of the discussion. Surely it must be possible to order an invoice by way of a forgery, online.........or even just make one up yourself.

But that would be......fraud.

 

[Ceejay]

I somehow knew there must be a snag with that idea Jonic.............and here's me a former VAT inspector, albeit many many moons ago!

 

[WaterwayWanderer]

VAT Paid status

Nothing you can do. The only record of VAT payment is the original invoice. The chances of HMRC pestering you to pay are just about zero if the original sale from the dealer was to a private individual as the responsibility for accounting for the VAT is with the dealer.

Equally the chances of you having any problem overseas is also extremely low as you will be able to show that you bought the boat in the UK so any VAT issues are nothing to do with any other state. If you have a complete record of the history of the boat with a Bill of Sale from the builder, one to the existing owner and the last to you there is no reason why any other state should try to get you to pay VAT. The only "nuisance" is that the lack of an invoice may raise eyebrows, but you will be in no different situation from many others.

This is well worn territory and does not seem to be any hard evidence the lack of an invoice creates any serious problems, unless there is evidence in the past that the boat was owned by a VAT registered business as a business asset or was imported from outside the EU.

Thanks for this point of view.
I am purchasing a Dutch Steel Motor Cruiser from a private seller in UK who has owned the boat for about 8 years in the UK. The boat was originally built in Holland in 1991. We have contacted the original builders who do not have any records that far. There seem to have been about 4 or 5 owners over the years but no records.
There is a document from Holland Yachting who we assume are one of the brokers along the way. This states that the ''the seller declares that VAT was paid'' but there is no invoice as such.
The current owner seems to have a lot of his various invoices for work done.
I plan to spend a few summers in Europe so am more concerned about running into a problem there.
Does anyone know of any particular occassions when this has been a problem? Maybe I am worrying unnecessarily/

 

[zambant]

Looks like jonic is making some headway in rebuilding some kind of history - it may not be perfect but what the hell - if it all works it will be good enough for me.

Keep you all posted......

 

[Bobobolinsky]

If its only 6 years having no VAT docs on a 10 year old boat should not be an issue.

If any tax authorities have an issue with suspect that VAT or import duty is liable on a boat or any other item surely they must prove that VAT or duty is liable on the item and it it needs to be detained pending investigation the tax authorities must get a court order, if they think the tax authorities don't need one they must consider that they are above the law.

Unfortnately, HMRC in the UK are like the SS of Nazi Germany, what ever they do is right and it is the only court in Britain where you are guilty until proven innocent

 

[padge]

Unfortnately, HMRC in the UK are like the SS of Nazi Germany, what ever they do is right and it is the only court in Britain where you are guilty until proven innocent

Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies strikes again

 

[westernman]

Thanks for this point of view.
I am purchasing a Dutch Steel Motor Cruiser from a private seller in UK who has owned the boat for about 8 years in the UK. The boat was originally built in Holland in 1991. We have contacted the original builders who do not have any records that far. There seem to have been about 4 or 5 owners over the years but no records.
There is a document from Holland Yachting who we assume are one of the brokers along the way. This states that the ''the seller declares that VAT was paid'' but there is no invoice as such.
The current owner seems to have a lot of his various invoices for work done.
I plan to spend a few summers in Europe so am more concerned about running into a problem there.
Does anyone know of any particular occassions when this has been a problem? Maybe I am worrying unnecessarily/

Worrying unnecessarily in my opinion. Add the usual to the bill of sale, "the owner warrants that the boat is VAT paid in the UK" or something like that.

If you are really really worried get a solicitor (or even just a friend!) to look at the documentation and write something like "we .... have examined the evidence produced to us and have reached the conclusion that the vessel named xxx, UK Part I registration number xxxx purchased by Mr. buyer from the private UK resident individual Mr seller, may be considered VAT paid with respect to the UK regulations currently in force. Mr seller has also warranted that this is the case and that no VAT is due by Mr buyer." Of course with a stamp on it.

Actually that may well be better than a real VAT receipt which does not prove the vessel is VAT paid now.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for this point of view.
I am purchasing a Dutch Steel Motor Cruiser from a private seller in UK who has owned the boat for about 8 years in the UK. The boat was originally built in Holland in 1991. We have contacted the original builders who do not have any records that far. There seem to have been about 4 or 5 owners over the years but no records.
There is a document from Holland Yachting who we assume are one of the brokers along the way. This states that the ''the seller declares that VAT was paid'' but there is no invoice as such.
The current owner seems to have a lot of his various invoices for work done.
I plan to spend a few summers in Europe so am more concerned about running into a problem there.
Does anyone know of any particular occassions when this has been a problem? Maybe I am worrying unnecessarily/

Follow the RYA advice and keep copies of everything that shows the boat was bought in the UK and is UK based. You are highly unlikely ever to be asked for any VAT proof - there is nothing in it for the authorities elsewhere. You are in the same position as many other people and there is no evidence it creates any problems. Make sure you have all the other paper requirements and your ICC if you are going into any of the CEVNI waterways.

 

[WaterwayWanderer]

Vat paid

Thanks to Tranona and Michaelchapman.
I have come to that conclusion now too. The next problem has reared its head -
When querying the VAT story with the original builders of the boat, they put me onto a Dutch outfit called Kadaster. They cannot help with VAT but they tell me they have record of a mortgage on this boat! Same HIN number.
Not sure how that can be as the boat has changed hands at least 4 times since the original owner, the current and previous owners being in the UK.
Not encouraging! I am hoping to discover that there is in fact no money outstanding but that the mortgage record has just not been cancelled.
But this will take time and effort. Any thoughts on this situation would be appreciated. I darent proceed any further with this deal until I resolve this.

 

[zambant]

The Saga Ends - John Rodriguez Yachts

Phew - all done - and we fell at the final hurdle.....

So - its all too involved - just suffice it to say that if a broker walked on water then John Rodriguez from John Rodriguez Yachts surely must be prime candidate.

He teased, cajoled and helped the seller to get sufficient information to prove title to be able to get part 1 registration.

Negotiated a settlement re VAT status which was amicable to all parties and quite frankly went way beyond what I would have expected.....

Now I've never met the guy but I will definitely be buying him a pint or two of falling down water!

The whole process was really involved and I'm not going to be giving any of his secrets, methods or advice away - that's how he makes a living....

If you read this John Rodriguez - aka jonic THANKS

Shame the b****y thing had osmosis and some other significant issues.

Fin - the end (maybe)

 

[jonic]

Phew - all done - and we fell at the final hurdle.....

So - its all too involved - just suffice it to say that if a broker walked on water then John Rodriguez from John Rodriguez Yachts surely must be prime candidate.

He teased, cajoled and helped the seller to get sufficient information to prove title to be able to get part 1 registration.

Negotiated a settlement re VAT status which was amicable to all parties and quite frankly went way beyond what I would have expected.....

Now I've never met the guy but I will definitely be buying him a pint or two of falling down water!

The whole process was really involved and I'm not going to be giving any of his secrets, methods or advice away - that's how he makes a living....

If you read this John Rodriguez - aka jonic THANKS

Shame the b****y thing had osmosis and some other significant issues.

Fin - the end (maybe)

Cheers Zambant

After all that, what a shame about the survey !

Never mind, I feel so sorry for the owner and will see what I can do for him.

You were a pleasure to work with. Good luck with the continuing search and I'll be happy to help again if I can.