New to Yachting, What do i need to do

[lenseman]

Hi all.

Firstly let me state my position. . . . . . I have seen a 23' Hunter Sonata in my price range that seems pretty sorted, are these ok ?

Hello Jason and firstly may I first welcome you to the forums.

The replies to your questions above are probably the soundest I have seen addressed to a newcomer for a very long time and reflects the enormous wisdom on these forums.

Yes the Sonata 23 is a very lively boat, you could almost say it suffers from ADHD and a number of others on here have stated the same! Look at it from this point of view, why is it for sale? If it was a 'nice' yacht to sail, at that price it would have possibly been snapped up by someone before now. . . . . Just a thought

Secondly, you already have been told that a Sonata is 'lively' and this means that it will quite happily and SUDDENLY sit over, with the mast at 45° or more from the vertical with the lee rail about 6" under the water on a broad reach!! It will get into this situation very quickly and you and your 'crew' need to know how they handle this type of sailing and getting wife and kids up onto the weather rail in a hurry might be a big problem.

Coupled with the above and noting very carefully what Phil (Lakesailor) accurately stated about the winds on a lake coming from various directions (and suddenly), you might have the yacht trimmed nicely for a starboard reach and suddenly all your bums are underwater as the wind has 'backed' the main sail and you are sitting on the Lee rail underwater. Nothing would put your wife off sailing than getting into a situation like that

I have sailed the Tamar river in Devon/Cornwall when serving in the RN and know all about rivers and lakes and how the sudden change in wind direction will catch out the unwary - Please be warned!

ps: A Genoa is a large fore sail, bigger than a jib and it extends further back behind the mast towards the stern of the yacht. A jib does not extend aft of the mast.

 

[Babylon]

can i not just buy a boat and hire someone to teach me to sail it ? sounds a bloody sight easier to me.

To be frank, you can pretty much do whatever you like. But you might just first distill all the genuine advice given in this thread to your original question.

FWIW the lowest cost of own boat tuition here on the South Coast is £150 a day for freelance instructors, about £180-200 a day through schools. Compare that to circa £500 for a five day (or three weekend) Competent Crew course, as follows:

The Competent Crew course introduces the complete beginner to cruising and teaches personal safety, seamanship and helmsmanship to the level required to be a useful member of crew of a cruising yacht.

* 1. Knowledge of sea terms and parts of a boat, her rigging and sails

* Sufficient knowledge to understand orders given concerning the sailing and day to day running of the boat.

* 2. Sail Handling
* Bending on, setting, reefing and handling of sails
* Use of sheets and halyards and their associated winches

* 3. Ropework
* Handling ropes, including coiling, stowing, securing to cleats and single and double bollards
* Handling warps
* Ability to tie the following knots and to know their correct use: figure-of-eight, clove hitch, rolling hitch, bowline, round turn and two half hitches, single and double sheet bend, reef knot

* 4. Fire precautions and fighting
* Awareness of the hazards of fire and the precautions necessary to prevent fireb. Knowledge of the action to be taken in the event of fire

* 5. Personal safety equipment
* Understands and complies with rules for the wearing of safety harnesses, lifejackets and personal buoyancy aids

* 6. Man overboard
* Understands the action to be taken to recover a man overboard

* 7. Emergency equipment
* Can operate distress flares and knows when they should be used
* Understands how to launch and board a liferaft

* 8. Manners and customs
* Understands accepted practice with regard to: use of burgees and ensigns, prevention of unnecessary noise or disturbance in harbour including courtesies to other craft berthed
* Aware of the responsibility of yacht skippers to protect the environment

* 9. Rules of the road
* Is able to keep and efficient lookout at sea

* 10. Dinghies
* Understands and complies with the loading rulesb. Is able to handle a dinghy under oars

* 11. Meteorology
* Awareness of forecasting services and knowledge of the Beaufort scale

* 12. Seasickness
* Working efficiency is unaffected/partially affected/severely affected by seasickness

* 13. Helmsmanship and sailing
* Understands the basic principles of sailing and can steer and trim sails on all points of sailing
* Can steer a compass course, under sail and power

* 14. General duties
* Has carried out general duties satisfactorily on deck and below decks in connection with the daily routine of the vessel

How much of this stuff do you already know to a basic level of proficieny?

In my own opinion, once you've got that (or at least the roughly equivalent experience crewing for other people) under your belt, you'll be in a better position to make an informed decision about the next step. If that step is to buy a boat, then your options certainly include paying an instructor to teach you how to sail your own boat. But don't expect the instructor to teach you navigation, etc - for that you need to either do the Day Skipper theory course at evening classes, or at least read a book on the subject before you put to sea.

 

[gregandginas]

Jason, I taught myself to sail, with the aid of a book or two [...] I would not bother with courses for Windermere, just buy a book and a wind thingy for the top of the mast. You'll have picked up the basics in a day or two.

Well said! Depends on your temperament, character and how you learn... but managing in a boat (as opposed to sailing proficiently) is not complicated: read a decent book, pick your conditions sensibly and if you've got any real aptitude you'll find learning to sail anything from a dingy up to a 23' yacht across on Windermere a fun challenge rather than a nightmare.

I take all the points about learning in a dingy... but you're used to large, heavy vessels... and believe me, any fun dingy (as opposed to tubs like GPs) would be a lot livelier and wetter than the Sonata! If you're adventurous you'd almost certainly find Lasers or windsurfs more fun to learn on... and they can be WAY wetter!

Key point: you're obviously (given your past experience) going to be unfazed by the weight of the vessel or by the prospect of motoring... so you can go to a quiet spot... try stuff... and when it's all gone pear shaped just drop the sails and go back to what you know. Sure, you might get your bums wet... or find yourself healed over in a way that's a tad hairy - but you've already used the word "adventurous"... and so long as that prospect doesn't worry you, you're thinking along the right lines.

Of course, if you start in 20mph winds with 40mph gusts in a crowded corner of the lake with too much sail up you would be asking for trouble.. but if you motor to quieter parts of Windermere, sail on calmer days (or put a reef or two in even when others aren't) and don't mind the odd hairy moment as you're caught out by the wind... it doesn't take long to be competent enough to be safe.

Buy the boat, choose days with light winds and make sure you don't get smacked around the head by the boom if you gybe... and in 2-3-4-5 years you can sell the boat and buy something else based on real experience of boat ownership.

Bear in mind that you could buy, sail for a season and then sell for what many sailing schools would charge for a week of live-about instruction for yourself and SWMBO!

 

[Strathglass]

Hi all.

Firstly let me state my position. I have had a 6 berth river/canal cruiser that i built from a GRP shell and then went on to cruise in her for the next 4 yrs until i sold her. I have always fancied trying my hand at sailing a Yacht, but i'm having tremendous difficulty finding info for an absolute beginner as i know no-one who sails yachts and i've never even set foot on one, so hopefully there's plenty of them folks here who can answer my dim questions, we all have to start somewhere.

I really fancy giving this a go, i want something i can sail single handed which can accomodate two adults and two kids. I have seen a 23' Hunter Sonata in my price range that seems pretty sorted, are these ok ? bearing in mind i have no idea what a Genoa is ? i think its a some kind of sail....the brokerage says its ready to go with everything needed to go to sea.

I thought about having it put on Windermere for a few yrs until the kids are older then going to sea in it, is this a good idea ? or not....

I have also heard about the RYA Dayskipper course, i need this to go to sea right ? do i need this to sail on windermere too ?

i have already spoken to a few marina's in different places and got prices for mooring fees for said boat so thats not a problem.

Thanks.

You have been given plenty of advice but it is really up to yourself.

If you want the whole family to sail then you will need a yacht about the same size as your present craft. Just imagine what SWMBO would say if you decided to move the whole family from your present house to a one bedroomed flat with sea views.

I have sailed with my wife on Windermere for a few days and my wife found it a bit boring.

I have nothing against Windermere but if I sailed there I would buy a sonata and race it. The standard of racing there is extremely high. If you were sailing there with your children then once they were able to handle the boat you would find yourself being pushed by them to get newer sails and other high tech gear to make the boat faster, Would your wife like that?

The Sonata is a nice boat to sail but would all your family be happy with it? It would be smaller and much less stable than your present craft.

There are plenty of more stable yachts available at similar prices to a sonata.

My advice would be to join a Sailing club within a reasonable distance to yourself and crew on different yachts until you find what suits you.

Be selective in choosing a club and pick one which matches your lifestyle.

Clubs range from the expensive G&T club which is formed as a social wing of an equally expensive Marina. To a club on a mudbath up a creek where everyone helps each other and boats are kept on swinging or drying moorings at extremely low cost.

There are many levels between those two extremes and you should be able to find a club which is compatable with your families requirements.

Some clubs run basic sailing courses sort of tasters. Whilst dinghy sailing is certainly the best way to learn it may not be the correct way for your family. They are used to little comforts such as a cooker, bunks and a lid and dinghy sailing may just put them off completely.

Sea sailing is so much more relaxing than sailing on inland waters. The winds tend to be more even and the wave movement is easier. There is also a lot more space.

Perhaps go on an RYA course when you feel it necessary but many people who sail have never had any formal training. The real way to learn is to get out on boats.

The only course you really need to go on is one for a DSC VHF certificate.

It really depends on what you want to do.

I hope you make a choice which you will be happy with in the future and enjoy yourself.

Cheers

Iain

 

[blackbeard]

can i not just buy a boat and hire someone to teach me to sail it ? sounds a bloody sight easier to me.

To me it sounds a bloody sight more expensive.
If you buy a boat while knowing little about boats, you will have only yourself to blame.
(But, thanks for your comment on my username!)

 

[Fantasie 19]

Yes - kind of an expensive route to do it though - you're going to need a fair amount of teaching to get up to speed (so lots of £'s) and you may find you just don't like it (so have wasted £'s on the boat)....

The boat you're chosing is kind of big for a first boat - I just bought my first one and it's only 19' but can fit two adults and and two kids (just) but on the plus side it doesn't cost much, so is an inexpensive "in" to sailing should I change my mind ( I think not!).... consider something slightly smaller and older......??

Don't underestimate the guidance above about courses and clubs.... if you've never sailed then the RYA courses are good, if you're not interested in courses then the best way to learn to sail is to sail with someone else which is where the club comes in (in the absence of any mates that sail).... I'm really pleased I ended up in a sailing club (I'm not really a club person) as I found some of the members to be an absolute gold mine of useful info.. the fact that the beer is half the price it is in the pub opposite was also a benefit!

if it helps my 'roadmap' was RYA dinghy course (years & years ago), then 20+ years of windsurfing, then I bought my boat this year.. I may do some RYA courses later, but I have the basic mechanics, and to me it's a matter of practice practice practice.... to be honest I'm loving every minute, got about a 100 miles under my belt, learnt loads, had some fantastic sailing sessions, and more to the point haven't hit anyone or broken anything!

 

[Litotes]

Self teaching

One more small comment to add to the advice here.

It is certainly true that you can learn the basics of sailing from a book. It is also true that there is no substitute for experience. And the fastest teacher of all is the experience of being in charge.

But I hope you won't neglect any opportunity to learn from others as well - whether formally on a sailing course, or informally, but crewing for people. What you can learn from other people may help make you a far better sailor (and, in many cases, a far safer sailor) and save you a lot of time. There are all kinds of tricks of the trade that will take you a long time to find out for yourself, if you ever do. None of us knows them all.

I've been at it for around 50 years, but I always jump at the chance to sail with other people and when I do I always learn something worth knowing, even if it just brings to the forefront of my mind something NOT to do. But mostly it is something positive.

I really wouldn't recommend self teaching alone, without exposure to learning from experienced sailors as well, if you want to be as good a sailor and seaman and as safe a skipper as you can be.

 

[TamarMike]

If you do decide to ahead and buy your own yacht perhaps it would be a good idea to buy a sailing tender to go with it, then transfer your skills learnt with the smaller boat to the larger one, gradually increasing your ratio of sailing:motoring

 

[robp]

can i not just buy a boat and hire someone to teach me to sail it ? sounds a bloody sight easier to me.

What people are saying is try it before committing. I can't say that I did that but I bought a very cheap bombproof little thing that motored better that it sailed. I was then bitten and moved up.

It may not seem likely if you have been on the water before but sailing on any large expanse of water can be daunting without experience. I don't think you need anything like five years but do need at least a season trying it all out.
Yes a Sonata is a bit racy and will therefore need some expertise.

Join the club others have mentioned and crew for someone else even for just a few outings.

 

[Iota]

The boat you're chosing is kind of big for a first boat - I just bought my first one and it's only 19' but can fit two adults and and two kids (just) but on the plus side it doesn't cost much, so is an inexpensive "in" to sailing should I change my mind ( I think not!).... consider something slightly smaller and older......??

!

size should not be an issue if everything else is in place. My first proper boat was 28ft but
I had sailed dinghys for over 30 years, raced regularly, crewed on proper boats and had gained my coatal skipper exams theory and practical.

For someone starting from scratch I would recommend a weeks course with a sailing school doing comp crew just to see how they like it, then night school doing the theory plus more time on the water with a school. Join a club and crew as often as possible. Diving straight in is full of risk and likely that the first boat will be changed fairly quickly.

my two euros worth

 

[rr_123]

First Sailboat

Would the comments about the Sonata being a bit lively for a first sailboat apply to an e-boat?

I am in a similar position to the OP with a lot of motoring experience although I have done a fair amount of crewing on yachts as well (inc three RTI's and a very pukey channel crossing) and a bit of dinghy (does my walker bay count?), and the day skip theory.

I am after a boat that can be trailed also, and although a bit cramped accomodation wise, the e-boat seems to fit the bill, but again they are big class racers, or would I be better of with something like a leisure 22/23 to start?

R

 

[jhr]

Would the comments about the Sonata being a bit lively for a first sailboat apply to an e-boat?

I've heard an e-boat described as "a dinghy with a cabin", which probably answers your question.

Nevertheless, there are lots of them out there and they're cheap as chips.....

 

[JasonClark]

First off may i thank everyone for rock solid advice so far, been some really interesting and sensible posts .

ok to clarify a few things.
(i'll use strathglasses post to quote as he covers what most of you have said)

If you want the whole family to sail then you will need a yacht about the same size as your present craft.

there is no way in hell i could afford a sea going Yacht the same size as my old canal boat.

I have nothing against Windermere but if I sailed there I would buy a sonata and race it. The standard of racing there is extremely high. If you were sailing there with your children then once they were able to handle the boat you would find yourself being pushed by them to get newer sails and other high tech gear to make the boat faster, Would your wife like that?

Thats why i fancy the sonata, as its described as a cruiser/racer, as later down the line i do fancy having a go at yacht race. obviously no intention of winning but having a laugh and taking part , that would be fun. and i also know that most major yacht races have a Sonata class due to there popularity.

There are plenty of more stable yachts available at similar prices to a sonata.

I will discuss this with SWMBO and see what she thinks, can you name some then we can have a look and get some ideas please ?

My advice would be to join a Sailing club within a reasonable distance to yourself and crew on different yachts until you find what suits you.

Be selective in choosing a club and pick one which matches your lifestyle.

Clubs range from the expensive G&T club which is formed as a social wing of an equally expensive Marina. To a club on a mudbath up a creek where everyone helps each other and boats are kept on swinging or drying moorings at extremely low cost.

The Latter defo suits the likes of me. i'm on a shoe string budget and am definitaly more of a pint than a G&T kinda guy. Any ideas where i would find such a place in Lancashire to save me trying out lots of different places and wasting my time and petrol ?

Some clubs run basic sailing courses sort of tasters. Whilst dinghy sailing is certainly the best way to learn it may not be the correct way for your family. They are used to little comforts such as a cooker, bunks and a lid and dinghy sailing may just put them off completely.

I think so to. I'd do it but i dont think the SWMBO would enjoy it. and thats the whole point of us buying a boat then we have something fun to do "together".

Perhaps go on an RYA course when you feel it necessary but many people who sail have never had any formal training. The real way to learn is to get out on boats.

I am going to book the dayskipper course [practical] before i buy a boat. i'm sure i will get a really good taste being five days at sea off the coast of scotland. gonna try for the august one. i'm not going to do any others as money just wont stretch that far and i should get all i need in that i would think. then get my boat and take it easy on light winded days till i feel confident enough.

The only course you really need to go on is one for a DSC VHF certificate.

Yes i will do that to, but that one doesnt break the bank

I'd also like to add that both me and the SWMBO love speed and a real thrill (we own sports bikes too) and i cant think of anything more fun than flying across the sea going hell for leather. (but like i said i'm prepared to walk before i run, so no problem)

We have two girls, one is 12 going on 20 and the other is 6, i forsee the 12 yr old not coming with us in a few yrs so that would leave the 3 of us. which would be slightly cramped on a 4 berth 23 footer but i'm sure we would get by.

Thx Jason & Michelle

 

[PaulJS]

Lots of good advice

I'm in a similar position to the OP and I hope he keeps us posted about how he gets on.
I have already bought a dinghy (ebay; plywood, 1972 vintage, wooden mast and boom, 205 pounds - including road trailer!) and done the RYA 5 day dinghy course I've still only, because of work and family commitments, been out in it 3 times over the last 18 months! Brilliant fun, and my daughters are both really keen to come out and play when they are a bit older and I'm a bit more practised...
I hope that all of us newbies manage to eventually get our yachts and our experience, and continue receiving good advice from the more experienced forumites.

 

[Strathglass]

Would the comments about the Sonata being a bit lively for a first sailboat apply to an e-boat?

I am in a similar position to the OP with a lot of motoring experience although I have done a fair amount of crewing on yachts as well (inc three RTI's and a very pukey channel crossing) and a bit of dinghy (does my walker bay count?), and the day skip theory.

I am after a boat that can be trailed also, and although a bit cramped accomodation wise, the e-boat seems to fit the bill, but again they are big class racers, or would I be better of with something like a leisure 22/23 to start?

R

I like the E boat and owned / raced one very hard for many years. They are even less of a 'beginers' boat than a sonata.

A leisure 22/23 is less demanding but not as responsive to sail.

 

[Lakesailor]

Jason.
There are quite a few Sonatas available on Windermere, and Coniston. If you plan on going coastal later think carefully as although most raced Sonatas will be up to scratch for lake racing, they won't have much sea-going kit. That would cost a lot to provide, better to get it ready fitted to a boat.
Have a read of Steve Goacher's Heavy Weather Sailing page on the Sonata web site. In fact scour the site.

 

[aquaplane]

There is a lot of good advice on here, some of it contradictory, it's a matter of perspective.

I learned to sail on Windermere with my dad/family in a 25' Westerly Windrush and a book out of the library in the other hand, so it can be done, but it can be scary at times too.

Learning how to sail a dingy has it's merits but sailing a "cruiser" can be different, if you want a cottage in the Lakes that you can sail I would go for a boat with more accommodation. If you want to race, learn in a dingy, my First 18 sailed like a dingy but it was friendly with more than 2 aboard to sleep, SWMBO may not like that so much, what is she like peeing in a bucket in public?

I have a Centaur, come have a go for the day see if you like it, or if SWMBO likes it, we don't use the bucket anymore.

The folk in the trail sail association tend to go for 20 to 23' boats. They are generally light and quick but cosey, and if you want to take it to the sea you can, and there are no berthing fees if it's on the drive. You may have 2 or 3 boats before you make your mind up.

When it comes down to it, where do you want to put your compromise? Performance vs comfort, convenience and closeness of non-tidal Windermere vs cruising possibilities and distance to North Wales or Preston/Glasson?

 

[cumbrian]

Jason

i was in exactly your position a year ago. how you approach this depends on how you prefer to learn - i like self learning after being shown the basics, followed by time spent with folk who know their onions.

i bought a small dinghy to sail on windermere together with a few basic books. sailing is a pretty simple affair at the basic level and you can get going with a minimum of tuition. after several becalmed evenings bought a 19' modest yacht then spent the winter on my own and with mates learning in the cold and the gusts - tagging onto the back of the racing fleet as it swept by and getting all snarled up with flogging sails and twisted sheets. scary sometimes.

beware - the rest of your family may find sailing ultra boring - its the kiss of death for my kids and my partner has other interests. but if sailing bites you - and it has - then the sea calls, some theory and practical courses, find folk who know their onions, listen carefully, then push your own boat out again....

oh, BTW , then you have to go and re-mortgage your house. and spend ALL of it.

 

[JasonClark]

Well i have finally gritted my teeth and bit the bullet and bought myself a westerley 22 ft Cirrus. she needs a bloody good clean and a lick of varnish here and there but she seems really sound. a few bits and bobs need replacing, mainly bits of door and bits of rear deck floor,

And here's a laugh for you all, i have a Auto helm ST2000+, A Garmin GPS 128, a Strata 128Plus fish finder/ depth gauge and a Standard horizon chart plotter CP180i.....and i can assure you all i have not a clue what all this does or how it works. but i reckon the previous owner knew his stuff.

I now need a mooring in the lake district at right money. if someone knows of a place please PM me your number.

 

[ianat182]

New to yachting

Welcome to YBW. Ah, the Cirrus that is a little gem to sail, and quick too so racing her in handicap races is possible when you are experienced further.
You'll get a lot of advice about them on the Westerly Owners Association,that have lots of technical info about all of the Westerly range of yachts including the Tiger and the Cirrus ; and PBO did a review of the Westerly range of yacht including the Tiger(mine) and the Cirrus.
Good luck with the basic training!1


Ianat182