New sails - types of cloth?

[prv]

New boat has old sails. The plan is to replace them either before, or early in, next season. However, never having had to look after anything except gaff rig and square rig (and I didn't spec the sails on square rig ), I find myself bewildered by the array of possibilities.

I know that there are traditional woven polyester sails, and that hi-tech racing-style laminate is beginning to filter down from the racers to the cruisers. I don't know what represents the best compromise of factors for our use.

• The boat is a Maxi 34, with the larger rig from the Maxi 1000 making it the "racier" version. It's a fractional rig with single-line-reefing main (I prefer two lines per reef but will see how I get on with this before attempting to change anything).
• The major reason for changing boat is improved performance, so this is a factor. No plans to race, but want to make fast passages.
• Quite likely to opt for a stackpack (albeit one that can be folded discretely away, I hate the look of the things ) so fabric that has to be tenderly rolled with loving care not ideal.
• Will be speccing three reefs (not that this has anything to do with fabric choice afaics)
• Would like reasonable longevity - no need for it to be any better than normal, but if it's significantly less then in practice they're liable to get used past their sell-by date.
• Price not an overriding issue, but any big step up in the continuum of prices would need to be justified.

My dad's got a quote from Hyde Sails, which says in part:

Thank you for your enquiry regarding new sails for your Maxi 34.

I have quoted the sails in two styles of woven cloth, ‘HMFW’ and ‘HM’. HMFW is our standard woven cloth that offers excellent durability and ease of handling and can offer many seasons good service. For those looking to improve longevity and performance potential then we would recommend the HM cloth. This cloth will maintain the designed flying shape, not just over a longer period, but also better across the wind range. This cloth is available in two styles for either high aspect (HA, to help manage the above average leech loads this style of sail generates ) or low aspect (LA) ratio sails. With the aspect ratio of the mainsail being within the HA range and the headsail the LA range, I have quoted accordingly.

The sail quoted would use a cross cut design, with the mainsail quote includeing two reefs and the headsail a UV strip. The headsail foam luff has been quoted as an optional extra. Please see the specification sheets (Touring for HMFW sails, Voyager for HM sails) for more details on the sails.

Thoughts?

Pete

 

[grafozz]

sailcloth

I deliberated long about a new jib ,this year , and learnt a lot about cloth types /choices .
The most outstanding thing was the reference to Hydranet .

Sailmakers dont like it because it lasts too long .....

(keeps its shape , excellent U/V resistance , light , etc ,etc. )

 

[prv]

The most outstanding thing was the reference to Hydranet .

Interesting. Looks like it's woven polyester but with dyneema threads incorporated to help it hold its shape. Clever idea.

Do most sailmakers stock it, I wonder, or is it specific to one? Are there other cloths that use the same technique under different names?

Incidentally, what's the difference between cross-cut and tri-radial construction in, say, a mainsail? As in performance / handling / etc implications, I know roughly what the terms mean.

Pete

 

[LadyInBed]

I know very little about cloth type, but from my experiences I would thoroughly recommend full length batons.
Not necessarily the expensive ones with their own cars, but full length pockets with a D connector at the end.
They vastly improve the sail shape.

 

[laika]

There are two Hyradnets. Hydranet and Hydranet Radial. Most sailmakers I talked to thought that Hyradnet Radial was wonderful and about the only choice for a radial sail in a woven, but very, very expensive. "Standard" hydranet is suitable for cross cut sails, apparently should keep it's shape better than a standard dacron, but is very expensive for what it is and people I spoke to tended to slightly prefer Vektron (which uses vectran fibres) as an alternative.

Bearing in mind all this only hearsay from my own research, the received wisdom is that a tri-radial will hold shape better and give superior performance, but you're probably looking at laminates unless you go for the very expensive hydranet radial. North have a woven which they make radial sails from but it's pretty expensive and no "independent" people I spoke to seemed to know much about it.

If you go with a cross cut form Hyde, ask about marblehead. And personally I wouldn't think of a 3rd reef as an "option"

 

[prv]

personally I wouldn't think of a 3rd reef as an "option"

Indeed - but Hyde seem to only offer two as standard.

I don't want a boat that struggles in a "yachtsman's gale", so decent reefing capability is important. I was also considering fitting a removable inner forestay (I liked being able to change down to a small staysail on KS) but the rigger I spoke to talked himself out of a job by being rather negative about the whole idea on the grounds of cost.

Pete

 

[wotayottie]

3 years ago my boat came with an almost new cruising laminate headail, foam luff and all. Its been used in all weathers and all through the year, cruising in summer, racing in winter. Still holds an excellent shape with no delamination of mold problems. I will replace like with like if it ever needs replacing.

On the other hand my expensive normal fabric mainsail has the same shape as a Tesco bag after the same use and the same length of time.

 

[johnalison]

I am a bit out of date with cloths since my sails are now 8 or more years old, however, my laminate foresail has done 9 years work at an average of over 2,000miles/yr, which seems satisfactory to me.

Reefs have been discussed here several times and certainly, a deep reef is essential. My main (on a broadly similar HR34) has 2 reefs deeper than usual, as per JOG recommendations. This suits me well but might not suit everyone.

Single line reefing on my 34 works very easily and I would agree that you should give it a try, especially if you have a similar in-boom car system.

Sails are well worth spending money on, as long as you avoid some short-lived racing types.

 

[Yacht Yogi]

Hydranet Mainsail

I have been using a Hydranet Radial mainsail from Crusader for a few years now and am very impressed by its shape and toughness. For the use you describe I would think it the best choice for the mainsail. My previous mainsail was a laminate that was a beautiful shape right up to the point when it disintegrated (lots of little holes and splits and moisture getting between the layers).

For your headsails you could have a normal Dacron for cruising plus a laminate one for racing or "best". You will appreciate the better shape and pointing of a laminate. A laminate will hold its shape right to the end but will only last a few seasons of frequent use. The Dacron will stay together for ever but will not hold its best shape for very long. You could try a Hydranet headsail but I don't know anybody who uses one, certainly never seen one on a racing boat but I could be wrong.

 

[PhillM]

Pete, I know nothing about sail design or cloth or rigging for that matter. There are two people I would go to :

Ben Green @ Shore Sails - what he doesn't know isnt worth knowing. I've said it before but when I first met him he insisted on checking out the whole boat (keel / setup / rig / trim before making recomendations - as he says "if the boat isnt right and doesn't sail as well as she should, the sailmaker gets the blame".

The other is Paul Carey, rigger. Good bloke, knows his stuff and very good value.

PM me if you need numbers.

 

[prv]

I have been using a Hydranet Radial mainsail from Crusader for a few years now and am very impressed by its shape and toughness. For the use you describe I would think it the best choice for the mainsail. My previous mainsail was a laminate that was a beautiful shape right up to the point when it disintegrated (lots of little holes and splits and moisture getting between the layers).

For your headsails you could have a normal Dacron for cruising plus a laminate one for racing or "best". You will appreciate the better shape and pointing of a laminate. A laminate will hold its shape right to the end but will only last a few seasons of frequent use. The Dacron will stay together for ever but will not hold its best shape for very long. You could try a Hydranet headsail but I don't know anybody who uses one, certainly never seen one on a racing boat but I could be wrong.

Thanks for this. I doubt my use will really distinguish between normal and "best" - I always want to go as fast as I can (put differently, there are no days when I have a particular need to go fast compared to other days). It's sounding like laminate is not for me (am I right in thinking it needs to be folded carefully? As mentioned above, I don't want to commit to that, sometimes I just need the sail down now, dammit). The Crusader brochure on their site does mention Hydranet headsails, described as their "Performance Cruising Genoa".

Pete

 

[snooks]

For the majority of boats and the type of sailing they do Dacron is fine. If you want to sail propery an know how to trim sails, not just set the outhaul at the begining of the season and leave it there, then you would benefit from a better sail cloth.

My Hydranet main and genoa, both radial (from Crusader Sails) look as good as the day they were first bent on. Not cheap though.

Laminate has a life of around 8-9 years depending on use, and when they start to go, they degrade quickly but it will more or less keep its shap throughout its life. Dacron will last for ages 10, 20, 30 years, but looses its shape every time it is used, but can be recut, but that won't revive the stiffness of the sail cloth. There are lots of different types of Dacron. Hydranet , made by dimension Polyant, has the longevity of Dacron, but the shape holding more akin to laminates.

Speak to a number of different sail makers and ask them to explain the cloth they would recommend to you and why.

Find a sailmaker whose work you like, you have heard good feedback about and use them. You get what you pay for. Buy cheap, get cheap.

 

[Simondjuk]

Cloth aside, I'd use someone who builds their own sails in the UK and will adjust and re-cut them themselves rather than farming the whole lot out.

 

[r_h]

My Hydranet main and genoa, both radial (from Crusader Sails) look as good as the day they were first bent on. Not cheap though.

How many miles/seasons have they done so far?

 

[BabaYaga]

I did research this last year for the replacement of my genoa. Was thinking along the lines of the OP, good performance without sacrificing longevity.
Ended up ordering a triradial cut sail from North, using their Nordac Radian cloth (google), claimed to be very stable in the warp direction, and therefore suitable for radial contstruction.
Time will tell...

 

[TonyMS]

We have triradial cut polyester sails by Dolphin, bought in 2003 and 2004, I think. Anyway, they were reasonably priced, and are holding their shape well. Just sent jib back for second replacement sacrificial strip, also reasonably priced. We sail about 2000 mpy.

Had laminate before, bought with the boat. PITA: main required careful folding leading to rows between front man and back woman (or vice versa) and threatened divorce. Fell apart anyway.

Tony MS

 

[Norman_E]

3 years ago my boat came with an almost new cruising laminate headail, foam luff and all. Its been used in all weathers and all through the year, cruising in summer, racing in winter. Still holds an excellent shape with no delamination of mold problems. I will replace like with like if it ever needs replacing.

On the other hand my expensive normal fabric mainsail has the same shape as a Tesco bag after the same use and the same length of time.

I bought a tri radial laminate genoa four years ago, and it is holding up very well, still keeping good shape and free from mould or delamination, though there is a bit of wear on the outer taffeta where it has chafed in places. The mainsail is a year newer and I took the same sail makers advice and bought a standard Dacron sail, which is also still in fine shape. The sail makers view was that a tri radial laminate genoa will give a performance gain over a Dacron sail, particularly after the sails have had a couple of years use and the Dacron has stretched a bit. At the same time the fully battened mainsail in Dacron will give good service and the battens will keep it in reasonable shape, so the extra cost of laminate is hard to justify on a cruising boat.

 

[snooks]

How many miles/seasons have they done so far?

Good point

Three seasons: The first was three month sailing from Portsmouth to Orkney and back to Largs. The second season was mostly around the Solent after getting back from Largs. Not a lot of use this season, arrival of my daughter and pants weather. So an average of around 1000 miles a year I guess.

Mainsail is fully battened btw, but the cloth still feels as rigid as it was when new.

 

[Blueboatman]

IIRC Twister Ken late of these parts did a lot of similar research and will be in the archives.
Seconding the point about full battens holding a Dacron main in shape, and having had one really posh aramid genoa "the goddam wing" as we nicknamed it, spend the money in front of the mast IMO.

I have old technology dacron biradial headsail which is still wonderful but will benefit from a light luff recut-by moi prob-sooner or later after 12! Years now..

 

[JayBee]

Another vote for Dimension Polyant's Hydranet. A Portuguese sailmaker, Antonio, of Velas Pires de Lima (in Porto) persuaded me that it would be a good choice for a roller furling genoa. No regrets. The sail is very tough, sets beautifully and so far has kept its shape for four years of fairly heavy use.

I am no expert on sailcloth, but the Hydranet's ripstop, dyneema/dacron construction just seems right. It is more expensive than straight dacron, but I anticipate it outlasting my more conventional headsails by a wide margin.

I am now looking at replacing my mainsail with the same cloth - fully battened and with Rutgerson batten cars and slides, which I can also recommend. I recently retro-fitted the Rutgerson gear to my existing all-dacron main. Hoisting, reefing and lowering this sail has become much, much easier on all points of sail.