new sail choices

[Birdseye]

the existing sails are getting a bit weary but not done yet. I was toying with replacing the radial laminate genoa but am wondering what approach to take

the situation is that the boat is used for some club racing in the winter with "the lads" on board. Its used for cruising in the summer with swmbo on board. SWMBO requires that we sail fairly upright and I oblige ( I get the go faster bit in winter) usually having a few rolls of the 140% genny even in 10kn of wind. so I was wondering about getting a 110/120% genny and keeping the older one, which still has good shape, for winters.

problem is that I have two symetrical spinnakers of similar sizes - one about 90sqm and one maybe of 80sqm. If I go for a smaller genny, and given that swmbo doesnt like me flying the spinny with just her on board, I feel that I could do with a cruising chute as well. thats too much spending in one year. Maybe I should sell one of the two perfect spinnakers ( which of course will guarantee that I rip the other one!)

is there anyone else in a similar situation? what sail wardrobe do you sail with? anyone else downsized their genny?

the whole thing is not helped of course because the NHC handicap has no initial allowance for smaller than standard sails

 

[johnalison]

I think a 110% jib works better on a fractional rig. I have one on my HR34 and have been very happy with it. In fact, I've just ordered a new one in laminate. It sets well in higher winds even with a few rolls in and is easier to manage than a genny.

 

[Kerenza]

Don't underestimate the matching of sloop sails. My laminate blade jib works beautifully with its matching racing main, but is useless with the cruising main. The cruising genoa reefs down well with a foam luff, until it gets to number 4 size, when we swop over to a real number 4. To be honest I can't notice that much difference between the 2 sets.
Never fly either of the kites when cruising,( big one is 120sq. m) but an easily managed chute in a snuffer all the time.

M

 

[slipknot]

I have a 120 on my furling gear which works really well, and is really manageable around the solent. When the wind is light enough to warrant using my very nice 140% I can easily drop the furling genoa and hoist the no 1

 

[charles_reed]

I think a 110% jib works better on a fractional rig. I have one on my HR34 and have been very happy with it. In fact, I've just ordered a new one in laminate. It sets well in higher winds even with a few rolls in and is easier to manage than a genny.

Definitely agree - I've also the alternatives of a 100% solent (non-roller) or a 65% yankee (sets on roller) and the improvement in tacking angle and speeds to windward are vastly better than with the 140% radial genoa.
In fact I use the rolled 65% yankee instead of the storm jib - the only time I've had to use the latter it's proved too large @ 35%!!!
I'd point out that, strictly speaking, any sail over 100% has to be a genoa - but the sailmakers seem to call all foresails genoas.

 

[dom]

Missed sailing today so thought I’d answer a saily thread! I’m not sure what you sail, but seem to remember it’s a Starlight 39, which I’ve never sailed but am aware of its fantastic reputation. From experience many people are bitterly disappointed with their new sails, so here’s my £0.02 for what it’s worth

1. Pre-existing solutions: find out what other Starlight 39 owners have done.

2. Cloth: you’ll probably want to stay with laminate sails as Dacron (even the triradial close weave stuff) doesn’t cut the mustard if you’re fussy about sail shape. Hydranet is a polyester/Dyneema weave, which I use as my No. 3 jib and I’ve sailed a Dragonfly with this cloth – it’s not a bad compromise, but nowhere near a good laminate. Laminates are confusing because all the big sail makers use their own brand names. The most common fibres are Pentax (basically turbo-Dacron), Spectra/Dyneema (essentially the same thing and made by Honeywell and DSM Dyneema respectively), Carbon and Vectran. My cruising sails use a Spectra scrim (high-modulus fibres arranged at different angles and with different degrees of separation to take secondary loads), sandwiched between two layers of film and then again sandwiched between two taffeta layers of woven spectra for chafe/UV protection. This construction is IMHO a fantastic balance for shape-fussy folk who also want rugged sails – downside is it’s a bit pricey and somewhat heavy. Vectran is also good as it doesn’t creep and seems to become more UV resistant over time. 3DL sails are almost certainly a bridge too far.

3. Cut/Size: I’m guessing your current main is c.35m^2 and genny c.50m^2. One needs to understand many factors in order to predict how a 110 genny might perform in relation to a 140. The Starlight is quite a heavy boat and, as on most cruising boats, will probably have a sheeting angle somewhat wider than optimal, which in turn makes it difficult to produce an even slot from gooseneck to hounds. I’d imagine that your main is cut quite full low-down to provide low-down drive and help narrow your wideish lower slot (function of wide sheeting angle). In light of your 140’s fairly large overlap I’d guess that your genny is also cut with a reasonable amount of twist.

Headsails are much harder to adjust shape wise that a main, yet the foresail creates the all important leading edge in our twin-sail airfoil. You mention putting a few rolls in at 10kts with your wife suggesting that your boat’s “design wind” (near max upwind VMG / optimal heal angle under full white sail) is c.10kts, which is impressive for a cruiser racer. But there is also the possibility your genny has blown out of shape. If your current genny is optimised for light winds, and has retained its original shape, it will probably have a gently rounded entry to cope with your fairly wide sheeting angles and to provide drive for a heavyish boat – I’d guess with maximum fullness about 40-45% back from the luff, a depth of c.18% and a twist of c.16%. If the sail remains in good condition it will have retained its designed near-flat shape from mid-chord to the trailing edge. Your designer and sailmaker will have optimised the slot to keep the wind glued to the lee of your main, which is slightly smaller than the optimal size used in modern racing rigs. Go for a smaller genny and your light air racing and your light/mid-air close reaching will be seriously hurt.

As the design wind is exceeded we need to increase the power/heal ratio of the genny and this requires a smaller size and a different shape – i.e. you want to pull the point of maximum depth forward, want to flatten the sail aft of mid-chord and also flatten the entire upper part of the sail. In addition one needs to reduce the size of the sail in a way that retains a good amount of height to maximise the airfoil’s wingspan, which takes us in the direction of the now ubiquitous high aspect sail.

My point is basically that speccing a single foresail requires a carefully thought out set of compromises. My advice would be to ask a good sailmaker to (i) take a look at your current sais, (ii) come on a test sail with you, (iii) run some proper boat-specific calcs which have reference to your current main. This will help sharpen your understanding of what you want and the choice of sail(s), the cloth, what you are prepared to spend will probably just fall out in the end.

And finally, don’t exclude the possibility of fitting an inner Dyneema forestay with a continuous Facnor-type furling (not reefing) system. Contrary to what others say they are easy to adequately tension and open the possibility of setting a flatter heavier weather optimised sail for heavier air windward work, which could double up as a lower power sail to keep SWBO happy in the 10-20kt wind bracket.

Edit: having posted this response looks more like a £0.03 than a £0.02, Oops!

 

[johnalison]

An excellent thruppence worth. I will put three virtual Ps in your virtual PayPal account.

 

[dom]

An excellent thruppence worth. I will put three virtual Ps in your virtual PayPal account.

Tks! ..and good luck with your new sails. On the off-chance you're new to lams:

1. Consider spreader patches from the off

2. If the sail is Mylor be careful not to overtension luff and never ever leave Mylor sails near a heat source such as an Ebby vent, they melt!

3. If Spectra or Carbon make yourself a mental note to cut down flogging, this destroys laminates like nothing else.

4. Mildew: it is well worth taking a lam genny off and storing at home in winter. Treat any mildew quickly; many racers use Miltons baby sterilising fluid to spot treat any patches of mildew that appear. And beware, sodium hypochlorite (bleach) is contained in all sorts of proprietary mildew treatments, but apparently not Patio Magic. NEVER EVER EVER let sodium hypochlorite near a carbon sail; it will dissolve it!!!

Happy sailing

 

[Birdseye]

dom

thanks for that. I need to clear up a couple of misunderstandings that might affect what you wrote. The reef at 10kn with swmbo aboard is because she is nervous about the boat heeling. The boat doesnt need a reef though it doesnt seem to make a huge difference to boat speed. Just to lean.Its important to me that I dont end up single handing so the deal is that we cruise with the mast like a church steeple in summer and race the boat (which is a Starlight 35 by the way), on its ear in winter with the lads on board.

So in a way I am thinking of two scenarios. In winter racing with stronger winds we often need to reef and currently do that by reefing the main at reef 1( 18/19 apparent) or 2 ( 23/25 apparent) before taking any rolls in on the genny. Performance seems better that way and I can keep the wheel down to maybe 5 to 10 degrees hard on the wind. In summer, I am reefed almost all the time so a smaller headsail makes sense then.

As a cruising boat, there is no suitable storage on board for the 140% genny so if I did go for a smaller headsail, I would be committed to that in summer. Winter time I can store the sail at home and hoist it depending on the weather forecast

In summer I dont have an asymetric and flying one of the kites is problematic with just swmbo and self on board. So the concern in summer is lack of area off the wind.

I'd take some convincing that the current sails, all well made by Kemps, take into account the sort of issues you mention. Are you a sailmaker?

 

[dom]

Tks for addn info - BTW I’m definitely not a sailmaker but raced boats all my life – where the sailmaker was inevitably an integral part of the team. Designing good sails is something of a dark science, which is why so many sailors simply look at the winning boats, call their sailmaker and say “I’ll ave wot he’s got, if you know what I mean mate!”. The sailmaker, not wishing to annoy his client, will often go all vague and forgetful at this point! None of this should apply to a Starlight 35, which is why copying others is no bad thing. I have no experience of Kemp, but I’ll bet they routinely bear everything I mentioned in mind and more.

Otherwise I would say your idea of using a 110 for the summer and selecting sails for winter races is a good one. If your older 140 genoa is indeed tired its draft will have dragged aft, the forward sections will have flattened and the leech will be a bit tight and possibly even hook a little. This is generally a slow sail. BUT baggy old gennys sometimes do fine in light wind conditions. Just pull the halyard a little tighter, tweak your cars to get the sail as close to your spreaders as you can and make sure your leech isn’t so closed as to backwind the main. The sail will however never cut the mustard again in heavier air. Your new 110, however, will have the draft well forward and a nice flat exit making your boat much nicer to sail and more upright to boot – but you will need to make clear to the sailmaker that this is what you want.

Just one more thing; 5-10 degrees of rudder is on the high side and normally 3-5 is the efficient limit. A bladed main (mast bend, Cunningham and outhaul all on max) with two reefs combined with a full 140 genny may not be optimal in 23/25kts apparent, especially if the genny is slightly blown. That said it might by now have a terrible shape when partially furled. Take some photos (lying down at mast and pulpit + from different angles) of your current genny for your sailmaker.

All in all I sense you're on the right track to become a windward witch!

 

[Birdseye]

The existing genny is surprisingly good shape wise but has one irritating issue. The previous owner, who ordered the sail, specified the sacificial strip on the wrong side and then instead of reversing the rope on the drum went and added a sacrificial strip to the right side. The sail now has two strips. Result is either severe leach flutter in strong winds or a hook of maybe 2 inches. And thanks to sailmakers habit of glueing before stitching, this cant be sorted by removing the strips.

 

[bedouin]

My boat comes from the IOR era and comes as standard with a 150% Genoa - this is really not a very practical sail as there is only a very small wind range in which it sets well - either there is so much wind it needs a roll or two, or there is not enough wind for the comparatively heavy sail to set well). So eventually I downsized it to a 110% Genoa (in Vectran) makes the boat a lot more balanced in general cruising mode and also gives a useful improvement in rating (not that I race at the moment).

I match this with a symmetric spinnaker, an asymmetric spinnaker/cruising chute (gets the most use) and a Gennaker (basically a 180% light airs Genoa in nylon)

 

[vyv_cox]

My Vektron (used to be Vectran but DuPont objected as the fibre name was registered to them) genoa and mainsail are now well over 12 years old and remain in excellent shape, despite considerable use. They are the cruising version of Hood's manufacture and therefore made in heavy cloth. They don't set well in very light winds due to their weight, which might be an issue for racing. In all other respects, superb.