New Greek "Duty" on Yachts Announced

[Chris_Robb]

The old cruising tax (TPP) has raised it head again with the draft of the replacement tax being published on the Greek government Website last Thursday. Last time this happened under the old government The Cruising Association managed to get an excellent contact at the top of the ministry of shipping and made good progress on the detail of collection methods etc and port police interaction. Although that bill never came in to operation, we got a spectacular change in Port Police duties so that effectively they only interfere with us once a year.
Now this new tax has been announced the CA intends to try to work with the current Greek Government to make sure the rates of tax are fair and that the method of collection is simple and easy for us to comply with. So here we have the first point of contention in that in the rates below you will see a huge jump between an 11.9 metre boat and a 12.1 metre boat. This rate jump is in my view unacceptable.
The Cruising association, as they did last time, will endeavour to co-operate to with the Government to produce a fair and easy to pay tax. From the draft bill it appears that everything that we managed to agree last time round has been forgotten - with one exception, that under 12 metre boats can pay by the month. There are a lot of unknowns in the draft bill which we will seek to get answers. We assume that they will try to have this Tax in action by the New Year. I am sure that this tax will be counter productive and will effectively cut the spend on Tavernas as people balance the new tax with their budgets.
This is a rough translation of the bill.
it is article 52 of the new draft law of the ministry of shipping which you can find at
http://www.opengov.gr/ythynal/?p=583
but it's in Greek, but Google translate does a wonderful job.
a rough translation of the main parts is reading as follows:
This article is replacing the TPP (law 4211/2013 government gazette No 256 A)
The new “duty” is imposed on all private pleasure and commercial boats irrespective of their flag whichare within the Greek territorial waters. Idle boats are exempted provided that the documents have been surrendered to the port police office.
The new “duty” is calculated on current annual or current monthly basis as follows:
LOA upto 8 mtrs EUR 20 per month
LOA over 8 mtrs and upto 10 mtrs EUR 30 per month
LOA over 10 mtrs and upto 12 mtrs EUR 40 per month
LOA over 12 mtrs EUR 10 per mtr per month (as of the first metre, i.e. a boat of 13 mtrs is paying EUR 130 per month – it is possible by joint ministerial decision (Finance and Shipping) to grant a discount of 30% max for those over 12 mtrs permanently staying in Greek ports.
Also:
Discount 50% for the commercial boats and cruise ships subject to exclusive commercial use.
Discount 10% if the “duty” is paid on December or January for 1 whole year
The “duty” is payable at the port police office or the tax office or the customs office. There is also a provision for payment by electronic means but it is not clear when this will be effective.
If the “duty” is not paid, the above mentioned authorities prohibit sailing and impose a fine as follows:
LOA over 7 mtrs and upto 8 mtrs EUR 240
LOA over 8 mtrs and upto 10 mtrs EUR 360
LOA over 10 mtrs and upto 12 mtrs EUR 480
LOA over 12 mtrs EUR 1500
The paid “duty” is valid for multiple entrance during the period paid
using the link http://www.opengov.gr/ythynal/?p=583 you can post your comments until May 31


There will be updates on this on the CA news http://www.theca.org.uk/news as and when we have anything more to report.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thanks for bring this to our attention Chris ,
If it becomes a monthly fees rather then a yearly one it will Cushing the blow a bit I guess .
But the Greek need to take care , no matter how wonderful a country is for cruising people move on once it start to hurt their pocket ,especially for tho who have been here for a while and looking for new places to see .
There are other great places in the Med to cruises and where once because there was little cost involve in Greece people stayed , now they might feel they may just as well use that money to go else where .
That was the feeling last time
you just need to take a look at what's happening in Turkey now , Marina offering big discount for next winter where once you had to book a year in advance and charter company move out .

For us it be a good reason to move out of Greece and go back to places we not seen for some years .

I can't see a mass exit out of Greece because of the tax and as far as the charter market goes it's no big deal , what another 20 euros on an 1500 charter , but I can see less money being spend in shops and restaurants.
I guess we all just have to wait and see again what will happens .

 

[[3889]]

Thanks for the info, Chris.

 

[Tony Cross]

My personal view on this is much the same as it was with the old TPP. It's an unwelcome and unpleasant tax, but I think it's clear the Greek government is intent on introducing some sort of cruising tax and they'll keep going until they get one that sticks. I think it's wise therefore for the CA to engage again with the Greek government on this, they achieved many very useful concessions during the TPP negotiations (notably the changes to the port checking in/out procedure) and I'm hopeful that they can encourage the Greek government to lower their expectations on the income from this tax and ensure that what results is fair, affordable, and easy to pay.

 

[Carmel2]

It seems this was inevitable at some point in time, I just hope it's not a law on top of another one which makes things as clear as mud to the localised PP, let alone us. Clarity for all would be a major step forward.

Thanks for the update Chris.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Sorry,but again it would appear that the CA intends working with the Greek government proposals rather than fighting them,as did the Germans and other Northern European countries last time.

How many CA members are there in Greek waters ?

 

[macd]

Sorry,but again it would appear that the CA intends working with the Greek government proposals rather than fighting them,as did the Germans and other Northern European countries last time.

How many CA members are there in Greek waters ?

Not enough to buy a destroyer.

 

[Tony Cross]

Sorry,but again it would appear that the CA intends working with the Greek government proposals rather than fighting them,as did the Germans and other Northern European countries last time.

How many CA members are there in Greek waters ?

As far as I know the CA does intend working with the Greek government to ensure that any tax imposed on yachtsmen is fair, affordable, and easy to pay. It's all very well standing on the sidelines and shouting "NO!" but the result of that will clearly be the eventual imposition of a tax that isn't fair or affordable. It is quite obvious now that Greece intends to introduce some sort of cruising tax (this one is their forth attempt).

Also bear in mind that during the consultation over the last attempt (the TPP) the CA managed to get the port reporting procedures changed, something that benefits all sailors today. In addition the CA argued for monthly payments for all, something that is in this new proposal already.

I don't want a new tax, I'm pretty sure the CA doesn't want a new tax, but it's abundantly clear that the Greek government does want a new tax. Sooner or later they will come up with one that sticks. I believe that it's eminently sensible for the CA to ensure, in the interests of its members, that such a tax is fair, affordable, and easy to pay.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I can't comment on CA policy and as a non member it wouldn't be fair , under the circumstances the CA are doing the best they can , all I will say , with what I read so far is , At less this time it's a bit fairer that boats under 12 mts can pay monthly , to be honest I couldn't never see it working any other way , as we all know Aug is the months the Italians pore into Greece and I could never see Italians paying 400 euros for a few weeks sailing in Greece .
I guess they would do what most of us have done for years , keep away where there any PP .
I still think that for some who have stayed in Greece because there wasn't any fees to paid will now look again at going else where where the fee are no more then they will be in Greece if ( yes there still an if ) the tax is charged .

 

[Mr Cassandra]

As far as I know the CA does intend working with the Greek government to ensure that any tax imposed on yachtsmen is fair, affordable, and easy to pay. It's all very well standing on the sidelines and shouting "NO!" but the result of that will clearly be the eventual imposition of a tax that isn't fair or affordable. It is quite obvious now that Greece intends to introduce some sort of cruising tax (this one is their forth attempt).

Also bear in mind that during the consultation over the last attempt (the TPP) the CA managed to get the port reporting procedures changed, something that benefits all sailors today. In addition the CA argued for monthly payments for all, something that is in this new proposal already.

I don't want a new tax, I'm pretty sure the CA doesn't want a new tax, but it's abundantly clear that the Greek government does want a new tax. Sooner or later they will come up with one that sticks. I believe that it's eminently sensible for the CA to ensure, in the interests of its members, that such a tax is fair, affordable, and easy to pay.

If I remember correctly the German version of the CA threatened to take the Greek government to court the last time this tax raised it head ,why are the CA in talks discussing its implementation rather than trying to stop it happening .

Have the CA taken a vote from its members asking if they want talks accepting this tax ,rather than rejecting it..?
I am not having a go at the CA just wanting to know .

 

[stranded]

I don't have a problem with the Greeks charging a cruising tax - the leisure market seems a perfectly legitimate target to me for a county in the mire that it is, so long as it is fair and does not discriminate against other EU citizens. So it seems entirely right that the CA engages with the Greek government to try to shape the bill. But I fear the typical shoestring long term cruiser who has to choose between paying the tax or eating in a taverna is being optimistic if s/he thinks that they will be much of a concern to the Greek government - in the past we could spend as much on a two week flotilla/charter as some liveaboards claim to spend in a year, although we plan to join the latter next spring! Given all the froth about immigrants here not contributing, it is a bit rich to object to contributing a bit to the infrastructure that we use - actively or passively.

 

[Tony Cross]

If I remember correctly the German version of the CA threatened to take the Greek government to court the last time this tax raised it head ,why are the CA in talks discussing its implementation rather than trying to stop it happening .

I don't set CA policy but as I have already said, the Greek government is clearly intent of introducing some sort of cruising tax. This is the fourth go they've had at it. Opposing it won't help, the Greeks will eventually implement a tax of some sort, frankly they need the money. Far better to try to influence the tax that is eventually introduced.

Have the CA taken a vote from its members asking if they want talks accepting this tax ,rather than rejecting it..?
I am not having a go at the CA just wanting to know .

How the CA arrives at it's decisions is solely a matter for the CA and it's membership.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I don't have a problem with the Greeks charging a cruising tax - the leisure market seems a perfectly legitimate target to me for a county in the mire that it is, so long as it is fair and does not discriminate against other EU citizens. So it seems entirely right that the CA engages with the Greek government to try to shape the bill. But I fear the typical shoestring long term cruiser who has to choose between paying the tax or eating in a taverna is being optimistic if s/he thinks that they will be much of a concern to the Greek government - in the past we could spend as much on a two week flotilla/charter as some liveaboards claim to spend in a year, although we plan to join the latter next spring! Given all the froth about immigrants here not contributing, it is a bit rich to object to contributing a bit to the infrastructure that we use - actively or passively.

Having lived out here for over 20 years very little tax gets back to government coffers ,that's why they are in the doda and most likely the same will happen with this one.

 

[Tony Cross]

Having lived out here for over 20 years very little tax gets back to government coffers ,that's why they are in the doda and most likely the same will happen with this one.

I rather suspect (indeed, hope) that it's opposition from within Greece that kills this tax in the same way that it's killed all the others.....

 

[Resolution]

I don't have a problem with the Greeks charging a cruising tax - the leisure market seems a perfectly legitimate target to me for a county in the mire that it is, so long as it is fair and does not discriminate against other EU citizens. So it seems entirely right that the CA engages with the Greek government to try to shape the bill. But I fear the typical shoestring long term cruiser who has to choose between paying the tax or eating in a taverna is being optimistic if s/he thinks that they will be much of a concern to the Greek government - in the past we could spend as much on a two week flotilla/charter as some liveaboards claim to spend in a year, although we plan to join the latter next spring! Given all the froth about immigrants here not contributing, it is a bit rich to object to contributing a bit to the infrastructure that we use - actively or passively.

+1
Pretty much the same point I made to Chris Robb yesterday! I suspect that the aggregate economic contribution of all liveaboard yachties in Greece is statistically insignificant, and far less than that of customers on Greek based charter boats.
You cannot really complain when the freeloading is ended by a relatively modest tax.

On a different angle, full marks to the CA for making the effort to nudge the Greeks into structuring the tax in a user-friendly way. It is really hard, technical work that I would not wish to take on myself. Chris was working on this deep into the night before catching a flight out to his boat - in Turkey.

 

[sailaboutvic]

+1
Pretty much the same point I made to Chris Robb yesterday! I suspect that the aggregate economic contribution of all liveaboard yachties in Greece is statistically insignificant, and far less than that of customers on Greek based charter boats.
You cannot really complain when the freeloading is ended by a relatively modest tax.

People keep on about the little contribution liveaboard make to Greece and as a full time Liveaboard I have to agree ,
but what you seen to be missing here is within the thousands private yacht in Greece from Holland , Germany, France , U.K., Belgium and from the rest of the world , only a very small amount are full time Liveaboard a very large amount are owned by people who come and go though-out the summer and others out for two or three months a year and they do spend quite a lot in restaurant in most case more then the charters , that's without counting transport , flights , car hire , a bus ride now from Athens to say lafkes is over sixty euros one way for a couple , and a taxi 130 , let alone their boat are hauled in and out each year some time twice and having all the servicing and the maintain by local yards and are paying yearly contact to Greek marinas .
Unlike the charter company who some have taken over town walls and local quays , the ones who are in Marina have cut the berthing fees to the bone .
Has for regarding how much charters spend , you need to have a good look around what's happening now , we was only commenting the other day how many charter we seen sitting on board making food and not going out ,
The last two night in Paxos charters where sitting on board eating we seen none in the local restaurant , so they may X amount of couples on charter but there spending no more then we are in shops if any thing we spend more ,

The point I am making is , let stop this crap about charters are the ones who spend money in Greece and private boat contributed hardly nothing .
We been back in Greece for less then six week and so far I spend over 1200 euros that's without the day to day living expenses , that just one boat two people who don't spend much at the best of times and over the next week or so I can see another few hundred euros spend in thing we need to buy , let alone the normal stuff .

 

[stranded]

People keep on about the little contribution liveaboard make to Greece and as a full time Liveaboard I have to agree ,
but what you seen to be missing here is within the thousands private yacht in Greece from Holland , Germany, France , U.K., Belgium and from the rest of the world , only a very small amount are full time Liveaboard a very large amount are owned by people who come and go though-out the summer and others out for two or three months a year and they do spend quite a lot in restaurant in most case more then the charters , that's without counting transport , flights , car hire , a bus ride now from Athens to say lafkes is over sixty euros one way for a couple , and a taxi 130 , let alone their boat are hauled in and out each year some time twice and having all the servicing and the maintain by local yards and are paying yearly contact to Greek marinas .


Unlike the charter company who some have taken over town walls and local quays , the ones who are in Marina have cut the berthing fees to the bone .
Has for regarding how much charters spend , you need to have a good look around what's happening now , we was only commenting the other day how many charter we seen sitting on board making food and not going out ,
The last two night in Paxos charters where sitting on board eating we seen none in the local restaurant , so they may X amount of couples on charter but there spending no more then we are in shops if any thing we spend more ,

The point I am making is , let stop this crap about charters are the ones who spend money in Greece and private boat contributed hardly nothing .
We been back in Greece for less then six week and so far I spend over 1200 euros that's without the day to day living expenses , that just one boat two people who don't spend much at the best of times and over the next week or so I can see another few hundred euros spend in thing we need to buy , let alone the normal stuff .

You're closer to it than me Vic, though the basic premise of my point about shoestring liveaboards stands I think - in respect of those for whom 50 or 100 Euros a month is going to be a deal breaker, whether liveaboards or otherwise, it is unlikely that their contribution to the Greek economy through spending is going to excite the Greek treasury - the profits of eg low cost airlines come from vast numbers, not a few individual passengers always looking for the cheapest fare. In any case, the way I look at it is that I currently pay around £250 a month on council tax, so £80 or whatever it is for the cruising tax seems like a bit of a bargain..

Edit: I should make clear that I am not knocking budget sailors, of any persuasion - I plan to become one 10 months from today - simply pointing out that it may be fanciful to think that the sailing lobby, CA or others, would be in a position to stop a tax, so are right to concentrate on trying to shape it.

 

[sailaboutvic]

You're closer to it than me Vic, though the basic premise of my point about shoestring liveaboards stands I think - in respect of those for whom 50 or 100 Euros a month is going to be a deal breaker, whether liveaboards or otherwise, it is unlikely that their contribution to the Greek economy through spending is going to excite the Greek treasury - the profits of eg low cost airlines come from vast numbers, not a few individual passengers always looking for the cheapest fare. In any case, the way I look at it is that I currently pay around £250 a month on council tax, so £80 or whatever it is for the cruising tax seems like a bit of a bargain..

Edit: I should make clear that I am not knocking budget sailors, of any persuasion - I plan to become one 10 months from today - simply pointing out that it may be fanciful to think that the sailing lobby, CA or others, would be in a position to stop a tax, so are right to concentrate on trying to shape it.

Hi
As in my first posting , I have no problem at all with what the CA is doing , as it happen I think there doing a Pretty good job under the circumstances , and Ha si said , as I non member, so what right do I have to comment on they're work , anyone who want to have a go at them , should first join then say there peace .
Well that's my veiw .
Going back to my point , is been said by some here time and time again that Liveaboard spend very little , it may be so but private owner are a very different story , I wonder if you counted up all the charter boat in Greece and all the private boat what would come up on top , my guess it there a lot more private boat then charters .

 

[Tony Cross]

I do know that when the last tax was proposed (the TPP) the Greek Marinas Association campaigned aggressively for it's cancellation. They were very certain that the implementations of the TPP (with the jump at 12m) would seriously harm their business because yachts would leave Greece.

I don't know what they will do with this one, but since it's pretty much the same tax it's a fair bet they will oppose this one too.

 

[Tranona]

I do know that when the last tax was proposed (the TPP) the Greek Marinas Association campaigned aggressively for it's cancellation. They were very certain that the implementations of the TPP (with the jump at 12m) would seriously harm their business because yachts would leave Greece.

I don't know what they will do with this one, but since it's pretty much the same tax it's a fair bet they will oppose this one too.

If I remember rightly from the last time around, the French and German objection was that they already paid a tax in their own state and it was illegal under EU to charge a second time when visiting another state. Not sure that got anywhere, but no doubt now the new proposals are published it will come up again.

As you say, the Marinas are more likely to be effective in at least changing the penalty for above 12m than any external pressure.