New build Princess F55 flybridge

[jrudge]

How very kind of you to book us for the Hut, I’ll send over payment details…….

I will ask the question tomorrow re: bathing platforms. I know there are safety considerations and for that reason a remote isn’t routinely offered even though it would make tender recovery much easier. I can see I’m going to get my feet wet !

A remote control should be standard. You put you Williams over the platform and press the button. Very bond !

 

[Commercial Dave]

On that basis I’ll say we haven’t got it then.

We will have 2 anchors on board and I’m pretty good at holding the boat steady into wind / tide. Failing that we have string of a suitable strength to attach to buoys, posts and cleats.

I know some cruise ships use geostationary positioning, their azipods and side thrusters in sensitive areas so they can disgorge thousands of passengers to destroy the habitat without upsetting the sea cucumbers.

Not sure I’d be comfortable with folk swimming whilst 1800 HP of Volvo Penta suddenly decides to stir things up…..

Yes virtual anchor that'll be it, it uses the engines to hold position AND heading regardless of wind and tide.

The other benefit of the joystick being that you can make the boat move perfectly sideways with only one hand.

I disagree with those who say joystick is cheating and everyone should be able to handle the boat with or without it - the joystick isn't solely for making difficult manoeuvres easy, it's more about making previously impossible manoeuvres possible.

 

[MapisM]

I disagree with those who say joystick is cheating and everyone should be able to handle the boat with or without it - the joystick isn't solely for making difficult manoeuvres easy, it's more about making previously impossible manoeuvres possible.

Can you make an example?

I can't for the life of me think of any maneuver that is only possible with the joystick and impossible without it - at least as long as we are talking of a boat on shafts, as opposed to pods.
Beware: the video shows both kinds, but the old Mediterranee 41, which is on shafts and originally came with just a bow thruster, clearly was also retrofitted with a stern thruster, as visible by the side wash.
And that is what allows (together with the b/t) the purely sideways movement at 0:48.

Sure, the joystick makes that more intuitive, and takes only one hand, but that's all it does.
Regardless, if there's one reason why everyone should be able to handle the boat with or without it, it's not to avoid being accused of cheating (whatever that means - who cares?).
There's a much more compelling reason, and it's that it's not a matter of if it will pack up, just of when.
And I've seen it happening, several times and on different boats, needless to say right upon maneuvering.

 

[Commercial Dave]

Can you make an example?

I can't for the life of me think of any maneuver that is only possible with the joystick and impossible without it - at least as long as we are talking of a boat on shafts, as opposed to pods.
Beware: the video shows both kinds, but the old Mediterranee 41, which is on shafts and originally came with just a bow thruster, clearly was also retrofitted with a stern thruster, as visible by the side wash.
And that is what allows (together with the b/t) the purely sideways movement at 0:48.

Sure, the joystick makes that more intuitive, and takes only one hand, but that's all it does.
Regardless, if there's one reason why everyone should be able to handle the boat with or without it, it's not to avoid being accused of cheating (whatever that means - who cares?).
There's a much more compelling reason, and it's that it's not a matter of if it will pack up, just of when.
And I've seen it happening, several times and on different boats, needless to say right upon maneuvering.

Sure it's probably a small, niche set of circumstances, but think of having to manoeuvre in a small marina and come alongside in a berth that is not that much longer than your boat, in very strong wind from an awkward direction.

Joystick control in *most cases* allow horizontal movement because they use multiple pods (or even outboards) that have independent electric steering. To move horizontally to port, the port engine is put hard over to port and driven in reverse and the starboard engine is put hard over to starboard and driven forward. The engine thrust is vectored automatically and as a result the boat goes sideways with no need for a bow or stern thruster. All of this is done by the software and the only input you need to give it is the joystick movement.

If you watch this video from about 3:20 and 4:15 onwards you can get a better idea how it works since you can see what the engines are doing:

Clearly this must have some advantage over traditional control because you cannot normally steer the outboards or pods in separate directions.

* You can get joystick control with single engine and bow thruster on some boats but with multiple pods it's just not necessary to have a thruster because the software is clever enough that it can make the boat move in any direction commanded by the joystick purely by using independent steering and forward/reverse

 

[MapisM]

Clearly this must have some advantage over traditional control because you cannot normally steer the outboards or pods in separate directions.

Agreed, but that's exactly my point.
When I envisaged in post #334 that henryf will not miss the skyhook (and I don't think he will really need the joystick also for maneuvering, considering his experience), I did mention that I was referring to shafts boats - which is what his F55 is.
And with shafts, there's obviously no way to use thrust vectoring, so all the joystick can do is control the gearboxes and the thrusters, in the same way as you could do with four hands: one on each throttle lever, and the other pair on the thrusters controls...
Which, jokes aside, as everyone used to that already knows, doesn't really take four hands!

 

[Commercial Dave]

Ah sorry, I missed that his was on shafts. I didn't realise you could even get the joystick without having pods!

 

[Nick Burnham]

That's BS. You NEED a remote. I've had hi-lo for 10+ seasons and it would be useless without a remote. Imho, insist on one.

I was told recently (by someone who knows what he's talking about) that remotes were no longer offered following a nasty accident concerning a lowered bathing platform, someone sat dangling their feet in the water and someone else sitting on the remote that had been left on the cockpit seat with horrific consequences.

No idea if that's true, but it would be an odd thing to invent (and the person in question had recently taken delivery of a new 75ft boat with no remote, their previous boat having had one, which is how the subject came up).

 

[Bouba]

I was told recently (by someone who knows what he's talking about) that remotes were no longer offered following a nasty accident concerning a lowered bathing platform, someone sat dangling their feet in the water and someone else sitting on the remote that had been left on the cockpit seat with horrific consequences.

No idea if that's true, but it would be an odd thing to invent (and the person in question had recently taken delivery of a new 75ft boat with no remote, their previous boat having had one, which is how the subject came up).

Has anyone heard of a hydraulic bathing platform amputating limbs? It sounds like the guy who dissolved in a vat of Pepsi...urban legend

 

[TonyR123]

And you won't miss it, either.
There's nothing that the joystick+sky hook can do and can't be done manually, on a shafts boat.
It's only with IPS boats (some of which have no thrusters at all), that the joystick can do something you can't do manually, i.e. rotate the pods independently in order to move the boat sideways.
But in shafts boats, it's just a way to control both the engines and the thrusters with a single interface.
The boat maneuverability remains exactly the same, it's just made easier/more intuitive.

What if you are waiting for fuel and need to get a drink. Activate the virtual anchor . I do admit that I haven't used mine too much but have used it - probably more because I could rather than needed. A strange feeling when the boat corrects itself.

I probably wouldnt bother having one with a shaft drive boat, and just looking at my quote it isnt an option anyway! So I thought I would spend some money on a "dock mate" instead.

 

[MapisM]

What if you are waiting for fuel and need to get a drink. Activate the virtual anchor .

Agreed, indeed the virtual anchor/skyhook/whatever it's called, even if it does nothing that a helmsman can't do, at least allows him/her to take care of other stuff. 'Fiuaskme, I don't think I'd trust it to the point of moving away from a helm station, particularly in close quarters, but that's me and my skepticism on anything electronic in the marine environment...
Besides, by now I'm quite good at enjoying a drink also while handling the helm!

PS: I agree that I'd rather have a portable remote than any joystick, whether inclusive of virtual anchor or not.
That's the only thing I'm missing a bit in my boat with fully mechanical levers, where a retrofit would be tricky and not worth the hassle.

 

[Portofino]

Just needs a software or other error to clunk the g boxes and / or - reverse the Dir of the thrusters too rapidly to bring on a big bill .
A bill that in a Sod’s law boaty way develops the first week the warranty runs out .

The familiar sentence from the engineer reverberating around the boat “ seen a lot of these “ .

Arguably there is something quite satisfying being able to handle a boat at the dock un assisted by gadgets .It adds a dimension to the pleasure imho .It’s just practice thats all it takes .

 

[Portofino]

Has anyone heard of a hydraulic bathing platform amputating limbs? It sounds like the guy who dissolved in a vat of Pepsi...urban legend

Life changing injuries I suspect is a better term here .
With what Nick said this type of adaptive behaviour in terms of limiting potential damage tends to be USA driven .A nasty court case by the injured person winning compo changes things from then on .

Builders are fearful as a result of being the next one in the dock .

 

[Hurricane]

I've never driven a boat with a joystick but I've watched a few.
The engines always seem to be "over reving" and the whole operation seems to be jerky.
That might have been inexperienced individuals controlling the boat but isn't that the point about them - designed for inexperienced people.
As an observer. everything I've seen just seem to be smoother on boats without joysticks.

 

[MapisM]

The engines always seem to be "over reving" and the whole operation seems to be jerky.

I couldn't agree more, M.
On top of having seen several funny maneuvers, I also tried an IPS-only boat (by "only", I mean with just the two pods and no thrusters), and when controlled via joystick, her motion is indeed jerky and over-reacting, no matter how careful you are with the joystick.
In fact, when I tried her with the old school approach (pods centered, using only fwd/rev on the throttles), she was actually much smoother, and still very maneuverable anyway - to the point that the friend of mine who owns her (and always used with the joystick) almost couldn't believe that the boat could be parked stern-to without the joystick.

But of course, the joystick is indeed very intuitive, 'cause it takes care of converting your wish to move the boat in any given direction into the appropriate engines controls, a process which isn't as instinctive/natural as anyone of us already used to it might think.
Besides, on an IPS-only boat, the joystick becomes an effective thrusters replacement, by moving independently each pod for thrust vectoring.
And this is indeed something you can't fully replicate by manual control, on IPS boats.
Clever stuff I must admit, even if not as smooth as they pretend in the marketing videos.
And clever till it works of course, which as I said occasionally doesn't... But turning off/restarting everything in the middle of a maneuver, possibly with some crosswind, if nothing else makes for a great dock conversation afterwards!

 

[Hurricane]

I couldn't agree more, M.
On top of having seen several funny maneuvers, I also tried an IPS-only boat (by "only", I mean with just the two pods and no thrusters), and when controlled via joystick, her motion is indeed jerky and over-reacting, no matter how careful you are with the joystick.
In fact, when I tried her with the old school approach (pods centered, using only fwd/rev on the throttles), she was actually much smoother, and still very maneuverable anyway - to the point that the friend of mine who owns her (and always used with the joystick) almost couldn't believe that the boat could be parked stern-to without the joystick.

But of course, the joystick is indeed very intuitive, 'cause it takes care of converting your wish to move the boat in any given direction into the appropriate engines controls, a process which isn't as instinctive/natural as anyone of us already used to it might think.
Besides, on an IPS-only boat, the joystick becomes an effective thrusters replacement, by moving independently each pod for thrust vectoring.
And this is indeed something you can't fully replicate by manual control, on IPS boats.
Clever stuff I must admit, even if not as smooth as they pretend in the marketing videos.
And clever till it works of course, which as I said occasionally doesn't... But turning off/restarting everything in the middle of a maneuver, possibly with some crosswind, if nothing else makes for a great dock conversation afterwards!

Actually, I can think of a place where thrusters (particularly a stern thruster) can be smoother than IPS.
And that would be reversing back into a tight Med style berth where there isn't quite enough space either side.
In the past, I have had to "wiggle the boat's stern" to create space.
In that circumstance, lining up the boat is important so that crew/fenders can squeeze you in.
In that case, personally, I like to "tickle" the stern thruster which moves the boat smoothly rather than a jerk.
Indeed, even without a stern thruster, it seems to me that operation would still be smoother than with pods.

 

[MapisM]

Absolutely.
We should always remember that the real rationale behind IPS has never been a real improvement of the boat maneuverability - that's just a nice side effect (at least perceived!), that comes in handy for selling boats to newbies.
Their KSF has always been, by far, cost reduction, nothing else.
Just think about it from the builders' viewpoint: they can just drop the engines+pods into the hull, connect them, job done. Ne need for skilled manpower, and as fast as it can be.
As opposed to that, with shafts not only the engines+transmissions installation is more time consuming and requires expert workers, but that's only the start. On top of that, they must install and wire thruster(s), rudders, exhaust system...

 

[rafiki_]

Absolutely.
We should always remember that the real rationale behind IPS has never been a real improvement of the boat maneuverability - that's just a nice side effect (at least perceived!), that comes in handy for selling boats to newbies.
Their KSF has always been, by far, cost reduction, nothing else.
Just think about it from the builders' viewpoint: they can just drop the engines+pods into the hull, connect them, job done. Ne need for skilled manpower, and as fast as it can be.
As opposed to that, with shafts not only the engines+transmissions installation is more time consuming and requires expert workers, but that's only the start. On top of that, they must install and wire thruster(s), rudders, exhaust system...

A massive benefit to boat builders is the space they free up for more cabins compared to conventional shafts. I agree with your cost point too.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

IPS always lead to a thread drift.

Positives of IPS for boat builder = easier and faster to install, uses less space, software gizmos, Volvo engineers helping with hull shape adjustment
Negative for boat builder = I think putting one egg in one basket is not healthy, but in major boating markets is well covered today
Positive for user = joystick, fuel economy you need about 30 hours to offset service costs (vs shafts) though at standard planning speed
Negatives of IPS for user = Volvo service is not cheap nowadays possibly the most expensive (I have seen two IPS600-D6 435 outbill those of Man R6 800s with surface drives)

The secret. The HP game is a big screw you, and more important the displacement of the engine. A 5.5 litre engine on a 16 t plus boat even if made of platinum want last much.....

 

[jfm]

It's a good job Henryf's new boat has shafts

 

[Hurricane]

Have you ever seen what barnacles can do to the seals around pods?
If you have, you would never buy a boat with pods.