New boat, which Liferaft to buy

[jbweston]

Part of the challenge is the difference between being safe and feeling safe.

What are the real risks, objectively assessed, of having to take to a liferaft? Versus, how safe do I as skipper and the crew feel with or without a liferaft on the boat?

So:

• Skipper A could feel totally safe even if his boat is a death trap from dodgy gas and petrol intsallations, lack of skipper experience, and unsuitabilty for the weather likely to be experienced, etc., etc.
• Skipper B could feel at risk despite excellent boat preparation and maintenance, good skippering skills and the rest.
• Obviously fact and feelings can overlap or coincide - a feeling based on objective fact that the boat isn't safe or the opposite a feeling that everything practical has been done to make the boat and voyage safe.

A liferaft can help with the feeling of safety or with objectively making you safer or both. In that sense it's like other precautionary equipment and activities like fire extinguishers and locking your car doors when you drive through a town.

For 14 years I've had an Ocean Safety liferaft (properly serviced), dan buoy, man overboard heaving line and horseshoe lifebuoy on my pushpit every time I went to sea. None of it has ever been used. Was it a wise precaution or waste of money? A matter of opinion - and what you might call psychological outlook or attitude to risk.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Not sure what the conclusion here is but I will point out that skin fitting failure is a maintenance failure. Let’s assume that we all go to sea in well-found boats which is, I think, a good starting point.

Our stern tube failure was undetectable before it caused leak (except by complete dismantling of boat which no one does), if the propellor had not limited its movement we might have sunk mid irish sea which is quite frightening. So the presumption that all our boats are as good as hoped is naive.

In practice collision with other objects is the greater risk than such deterioration. Idiots in speed boats, or dredgers for instance, not to mention fishing boats with sole crew member gutting fish while not making a lookout.

Additionally quite a few leisure boats catch fire each year, and very hard to deal with. I hope if it happed my auto fire extinguisher in the engine bay would sort it, but who knows?

 

[peter gibbs]

I'm after a life raft, Oban based. 28 ft boat, usually 2 on board, sometimes only 1. Any recommendations?

In your region.you need a proper 4 man inflatable- has stability and protection from the elements. Costs new about £800 from SIBS viewing last week. Hiring £300 or so pa.
To be controversial. I wouldn't rush into this before all your safety needs are fully considered - can £800 be better spent against other more common risks? A liferaft is for extreme conditions; boat failure, requiring abandoning the boat - it doesn't get more serious because your boat is otherwise your best liferaft. EPIRB would come higher up my list for example.

 

[nevis768]

Thanks for that reply, I'm going to get a proper one from Ocean safety in Greenock, and a PLB from the same place, or I might get an EPIRB, just trying to work out the difference between them. Any views welcome of which to get, EPIRB or PLB? Also looking at different Danbouys too.

 

[dunedin]

[

Thanks for that reply, I'm going to get a proper one from Ocean safety in Greenock, and a PLB from the same place, or I might get an EPIRB, just trying to work out the difference between them. Any views welcome of which to get, EPIRB or PLB? Also looking at different Danbouys too.

Good call. I would get a PLB - and indeed have two, one in date and its predecessor which is out of date but still full battery.

An EPIRB is perhaps better if going trans Atlantic or to the Faroes, as has longer battery life etc. But for your cruising ground a PLB should be more than fine. The benefit is it is smaller and if sailing solo far from other boats worth keeping on you (close to harbour a portable VHF is better).
We have the McMurdo FastFind but this seems a potential bargain (check carefully) - https://suffolkmarinesafety.com/pro...nbw11JKrL73_CQtkalzfuJJdfT5mcDqcaAot6EALw_wcB

 

[peter gibbs]

Thanks for that reply, I'm going to get a proper one from Ocean safety in Greenock, and a PLB from the same place, or I might get an EPIRB, just trying to work out the difference between them. Any views welcome of which to get, EPIRB or PLB? Also looking at different Danbouys too.

The EPIRB signals anywhere and brings immediate rescue. Personal beacons are much more limited..
I have e danbuoy - potentially useful, but in reality....
Radar reflector - cylinder type. Essential.
Good transom ladder with 2+ steps under water when lowered. You won't get anyone on board from the water otherwise.
Quality binoculars - invaluable for misty approaches and night sailing.
Hope that helps.

 

[dunedin]

The EPIRB signals anywhere and brings immediate rescue. Personal beacons are much more limited..

Why is a PLB more limited, other than battery life and self floatation. Both have GPS and connect to satellite so will bring rescue in the same timescale (but neither are “immediate”, hence why a VHF is better if other boats in vicinity)
See here - What is the difference between a PLB and an EPIRB? | MRT.

 

[Tranona]

In practice collision with other objects is the greater risk than such deterioration. Idiots in speed boats, or dredgers for instance, not to mention fishing boats with sole crew member gutting fish while not making a lookout.

Additionally quite a few leisure boats catch fire each year, and very hard to deal with. I hope if it happed my auto fire extinguisher in the engine bay would sort it, but who knows?

Do you have any real documented evidence to support these statements? Easy things to say - but every time I have have tried to find verifiable evidence it was not there.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Do you have any real documented evidence to support these statements? Easy things to say - but every time I have have tried to find verifiable evidence it was not there.

The MAIB reports. You can trawl through them like I do, but I cannot quote you chapter and verse as only interested in general trends relating to my own safety work or indeed my own safety.

The Orca dredger incident sticks in my mind and various high speed collisions with RIBs, and fishermen hitting scottish rocks

 

[nevis768]

[
Good call. I would get a PLB - and indeed have two, one in date and its predecessor which is out of date but still full battery.

An EPIRB is perhaps better if going trans Atlantic or to the Faroes, as has longer battery life etc. But for your cruising ground a PLB should be more than fine. The benefit is it is smaller and if sailing solo far from other boats worth keeping on you (close to harbour a portable VHF is better).
We have the McMurdo FastFind but this seems a potential bargain (check carefully) - Ocean Signal Rescue Me PLB1 | Suffolk Marine Safety

Cheers for that link, looks a good deal too

 

[Tranona]

The MAIB reports. You can trawl through them like I do, but I cannot quote you chapter and verse as only interested in general trends relating to my own safety work or indeed my own safety.

The Orca dredger incident sticks in my mind and various high speed collisions with RIBs, and fishermen hitting scottish rocks

I have done - and did not find what you claim, which is why I asked. This is specific to yachts, not to fishing or commercial vessels where you do find both more and a much wider range of incidents including collisions and fires as in the incidents you mention.

 

[Stooriefit]

Nevis768 - if you are going to speak to Ocean Safety in Greenock ask for their best price. As I recall I didn't pay as much as was originally quoted for my kit from them.

 

[bitbaltic]

But the point that I was making is that such events (fire in calm coastal conditions) are also vanishingly rare. I can think of only 3 in the last 20 odd years, 2 of which were very close to shore but the boats did not sink and crew were rescued from the burning boats and one in the middle of the N Sea which did eventually sink and the (single) crew took to their raft.

Fire is a very emotive matter - as are liferafts. Put the two together and it is difficult to come to a rational decision, but you can convince yourself that you have made a sound decision in buying one of these "light" devices. Fortunately you will never need to show whether it was a good decision or not.

As is not unusual, we are in broad agreement.

When it comes to emotive matters, I would include a qualifier that you do not- small children on board, and a consequently concerned wife.

I sail a well found boat and would myself sail it coastally without any raft, as I think you are arguing, on the balance of probabilities. Small children on board, and increasingly so their mothers, often require a dad-skipper to shift his balance from probability to any possibility. I have successfully argued to exclude the possibility of force of weather; I am left with fire, and the purchase of a small raft is sufficient to close the problem out. Job done.

 

[Elessar]

I bought a lalizas compact life raft a couple of years ago on the premise that it’s there not for force of weather but for fire. We sail as a family mostly in benign conditions and don’t expect to abandon the boat for any other reason. It’s absolutely tiny stowed; I wouldn’t want to be in it in survival conditions but it fulfills our needs.

Lalizas Compact Liferaft - Leisure Raft | Force 4 Chandlery

Fire or a MOB you can’t get back on board.
But I completely agree with you.