New boat, conventional diesel or diesel hybrid?

lustyd

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With battery technology improving so massively to have the ability to motor for and hour or two is a bonus and the efficiency of the likes of Watt&Sea is impressive.
Sailing Uma have a pretty poor installation based on drop in lithium batteries and they can motor for 4-6 hours with their oceanvolt motor at a reasonable speed. If they chose to they could increase that range quite a bit by building a larger battery installation using prismatic cells to keep costs down. They don't seem to feel the need though despite clearly having the ability to get the kit in exchange for sponsorship
 

pvb

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My maths is superb. You need to take 650Ah out at 12V. How you achieve that is a different matter. Clearly you'd need a lot more that 650Ah if you were using lead acid, but not if you were using Li-ion.

You'd need to draw around 1250A at 12V, even with Li-ion you'd need quite a big bank of batteries.
 

JumbleDuck

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You'd need to draw around 1250A at 12V

For half an hour, yes. Hence my estimated 650Ah of capacity. It would have been clearer to put "available capacity" so I'll change that now.

even with Li-ion you'd need quite a big bank of batteries.

True, but light, which makes them much easier to store. When the chap I knew with an electric auxiliary changed from lead to lithium he was able to fit more in because they didn't have to be low down. Luckily he was sponsored by a battery company ... the new set were worth more than the boat ...
 

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This might be an interesting video if interested in real life performance and range.
I wonder how these electric sail drives are for maintenance. Not being attached to a vibrating engine must be less damage to rubber seals and being small enough to unbolt and lift off it looks easy for DIY. The price difference between is 6000 euros more for the saildrive version than shaft drive SAILDRIVE 8 - Oceanvolt which seems a hell of a lot but at least if maintenance was some thousands of pounds less every few years that would be something to factor in its favour.
 

Tranona

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I wonder how these electric sail drives are for maintenance. Not being attached to a vibrating engine must be less damage to rubber seals and being small enough to unbolt and lift off it looks easy for DIY. The price difference between is 6000 euros more for the saildrive version than shaft drive SAILDRIVE 8 - Oceanvolt which seems a hell of a lot but at least if maintenance was some thousands of pounds less every few years that would be something to factor in its favour.
Don't think it has a flexible rudder seal from what I could sea. The mounting plate seemed to be glassed in solidly. The saildrive oil also circulates round the electric motor to cool it so there must be some sort of oil sealing between the two units. Damage to a traditional saildrive seal is almost non existent as anybody who has changed one will tell you. They seem more than capable of absorbing engine vibrations without degrading.
 

Laminar Flow

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Of course, we could see things like prop design change drastically to accomodate motors which can deliver all of their torque all of the time, so it's possible we might not even need equivalent power to achieve the same results. We may also see props designed to harvest maximum power under sail. Everything about current design is based on the compromises necessary to accomodate a diesel engine and its many and various failings.
The statement that props are currently designed to accommodate the characteristics of a diesel engine is incorrect; you are looking at the horse from the wrong end. A regular, fixed pitch prop, no matter by what means it is turned, is only ever efficient in a relatively small range of RPM and power loading, i.e. blade area.

This is also the reason why the much promoted idea of "motorsailing" is really nonsense, with the sole exception being that of increased comfort due to roll attenuation.

The only way to avoid this technical problem is to use a variable pitch prop. This will add another level of complexity and significant expense to your system, not to mention weight.

I love these debates where the same folk that promote the benefits of modern, super-light, super fast and shallow bodied, big volume design now suggest filling all that lovely space with complex, heavy machinery and to stuff their skinny keels with a couple of tons of battery ballast and still, no doubt, be able to plane the poor thing and all that on a 32 footer in cruising trim, no less.
 

lustyd

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I meant everything about current boats is designed around the diesel engine. But props are certainly designed for diesel engines because that's what they attach to, and in doing so need to accomodate for the fact that a diesel has a torque curve. The first motor boats couldn't plane because they were sail boats with an engine. We always refine things over years or decades as buy in increases and available funds for research and development increase. That's why we have safe lithium batteries now and didn't before, and that's why props will evolve again to meet the needs of electric. The yacht in the video already has a new prop designed for regen, so suggesting things won't change is already proven wrong!
 

TernVI

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Sailing Uma have a pretty poor installation based on drop in lithium batteries and they can motor for 4-6 hours with their oceanvolt motor at a reasonable speed. If they chose to they could increase that range quite a bit by building a larger battery installation using prismatic cells to keep costs down. They don't seem to feel the need though despite clearly having the ability to get the kit in exchange for sponsorship
You don't need much power to motor at a 'reasonable speed' in flat water.
A one HP horse moves a canal boat of several tonnes at a 'reasonable speed'.
I have motored a 28ft boat using a 2HP outboard.
But the power you need goes quickly higher if you want to go at 'hull speed' or you don't want to be stopped dead by the first bit of chop.
Maybe sometimes when there is no wind or chop, the average yachtbuyer would be happy to go at 4 knots instead of 6, after all you'd have the benefit of (relative) silence. But the market has grown accustomed to 15HP in a 28ft boat and 25 in a 34ft boat or thereabouts.

From my point of view, either I have a motor which will take me across the Channel, or I don't, in which case I'm beholden to the wind. I could live with that. IF I was in a marina, or going to one, I'd like a little motor for parking purposes. '4 to 6 hours' is neither one thing nor the other. It is a big spend on batteries for little gain over a Torqueedo approach.
To have the functionality a diesel gives the average South Coast Yotter with a 34ft boat, you are needing of the order of 12hrs x 15kW, as a bare minimum, even then it would dictate that you sought charging after every day you did significant motoring. I would not generally plan to cross the Channel or Lyme Bay without knowing I could complete the passage under power. If you're expecting people to break that mindset, that's a total culture change for most people who will be in the market for a £££ yacht.
 

lustyd

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Chop generally comes with wind so time to put the sails up.
Yes, those made up numbers sure look scary ?
 

Tranona

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I love these debates where the same folk that promote the benefits of modern, super-light, super fast and shallow bodied, big volume design now suggest filling all that lovely space with complex, heavy machinery and to stuff their skinny keels with a couple of tons of battery ballast and still, no doubt, be able to plane the poor thing and all that on a 32 footer in cruising trim, no less.
Well said. The key to making maximum use of electric as it is now is light weight if you want to achieve any sort of regeneration as you can only get this, even with appropriate props if you can achieve constant speeds under sail in the 6-8 knots range and to do this you need the longest WL and the largest SA/Disp ratios the hull design can cope with. one of the later Uma vids show this very well with their latest saildrive unit.. They get excited when they get 200w going in at 6knots which set against usage of 4kw under engine for 5.5 knots. Works for them (sort of) if they spend days under sail to in their words is enough to just about balance their domestic and navigational usage leaving capacity for 2-3 hours motoring when they arrive.

I wonder how many others are prepared to work with those constraints on their sailing?
 

Tranona

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I meant everything about current boats is designed around the diesel engine. But props are certainly designed for diesel engines because that's what they attach to

Don't know where you get that idea from - if you are talking about fixed pitch props and displacement boats. The prop does not care where the power comes from, nor the shape of the torque curve. The size is set to be able to absorb all the power the engine can produce at its maximum rpm. at all engine speeds it is suboptimal. As already suggested, variable pitch props are available which you can adjust under way to reflect the shape of the power curve, typically by putting more load on the engine at lower revs to use more of the available power. These can either be infinitely variable like the old Sabb system and similar commonly used on Scandinavian fishing boats, or 2 step like Gori use on their feathering props. The objective is to reduce revs at cruising speed by using a steeper pitch to increase the load on the engine. The alternative route is the automatic self pitching prop - the Autoprop which automatically adjusts pitch to reflect the conditions and speed - again to reduce rpm while demanding the same power.
 

lustyd

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You're describing props designed for current boats with diesel engines. You might know a lot about them, but you're describing the status quo whether it's in great detail or not. As I mentioned, there are already new props optimised for regen with the Oceanvolt as demonstrated in the video so no matter how much explaining you do as to why there isn't an improvement to be made I'm going to view it as a fixed mindset rather than the truth because there is already evidence to the contrary, not to mention millenia of human innovation suggesting we can always improve and evolve our technology.
 

Laminar Flow

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I meant everything about current boats is designed around the diesel engine. But props are certainly designed for diesel engines because that's what they attach to, and in doing so need to accomodate for the fact that a diesel has a torque curve. The first motor boats couldn't plane because they were sail boats with an engine. We always refine things over years or decades as buy in increases and available funds for research and development increase. That's why we have safe lithium batteries now and didn't before, and that's why props will evolve again to meet the needs of electric. The yacht in the video already has a new prop designed for regen, so suggesting things won't change is already proven wrong!
I do understand that you have strong opinions and I thank you for the little history lesson on powered craft. I also commend your faith in a linear development of technology that, apparently, has eluded all us lesser fools, even the pros.
In propeller driven displacement vessels the very best prop efficiency you can hope for is 70%. That is exceptional by the way, really. At 50%, most professional engineers think that you are already in the ball park, even with lithium batteries .... Finding the sweet spot is something the shipping industry literally spends billions on, regardless of a near two-hundred year history of prop development. Perhaps, because it is not all as simple as you would like to make it out- so, a diesel engine gets a diesel prop, a steam engine, a steam prop and so on and so forth, until you reach the apex of evolution which must be the electric prop that is equally effective going forward, backwards or being towed and beats any other prop at it to boot ...
While an electric motor may not have a power curve like a diesel, there are several other factors that govern prop design such as RPM, blade area, pitch and, of course the resistance properties of a hull and at what speed, or economy we would like it to travel at and, at the other end, how much we still like to sail.
A prop designed to work in either direction is a significant compromise which is a problem when you are already dealing with a limited operational range.

We currently keep our boat on a tidal river in Brittany. I takes us well over two hours to reach anything we could pretend is open water, more if we go on a rising tide, which, given the local geography, is the preferred approach. In this respect and with the present efficiencies an electric drives would be entirely impracticable for us.
All considered, we have already reduced our motoring by 75%. It was done by fixing the other end of our hybrid system: by improving our boat's sailing ability and by trying to sail whenever we can. This is, arguably, of a much greater benefit to the environment than filling our bilge with that other socioeconomic and environmental monstrosity, the lithium battery.
 

Tranona

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You're describing props designed for current boats with diesel engines. You might know a lot about them, but you're describing the status quo whether it's in great detail or not. As I mentioned, there are already new props optimised for regen with the Oceanvolt as demonstrated in the video so no matter how much explaining you do as to why there isn't an improvement to be made I'm going to view it as a fixed mindset rather than the truth because there is already evidence to the contrary, not to mention millenia of human innovation suggesting we can always improve and evolve our technology.
But they are still fixed pitch - just capable of operating in a different direction when going forward so that they are able to generate instead of propel. The prop they are using seems to be much the same as a folding (not variable pitch) prop that can run in the reverse direction when going forward. Uma explains it in a later video. But again it is nothing to do with the torque characteristics of a diesel compared with an electric motor. He also shows, but does not explain why, the saildrive has a reduction ratio - this is to reduce the shaft RPM to allow it to swing what I guess was around 17 or 18" prop. A large diameter slow revving prop is generally more efficient - indeed the new saildrive was lengthened to increase tip clearance as the original was too close to the hull.

Of course there will be developments in propeller design to take advantage of electric power systems - but they will be in improving regeneration as this is the weakness at the moment. Propulsion is not an issue as they already seem to be as efficient in power usage against speed as a diesel - or even more efficient. As we know the biggest constraint is energy density and that can only be improved by getting spin off from automotive developments as the marine market is far too small to justify any significant development.
 

JumbleDuck

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A one HP horse moves a canal boat of several tonnes at a 'reasonable speed'.
<Cough> A horse is actually about 2/3 hp. James Watt established that the average horse could do 22,000 ft-lbs of work per minute, then set the horsepower at 33,000 ft-lbs per minute, probably so that a 4 hp Boulton & Watt engines would appear to the work much more easily than four horses.
 

Buck Turgidson

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<Cough> A horse is actually about 2/3 hp. James Watt established that the average horse could do 22,000 ft-lbs of work per minute, then set the horsepower at 33,000 ft-lbs per minute, probably so that a 4 hp Boulton & Watt engines would appear to the work much more easily than four horses.
But peak power about 15.
 
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