sailorman
Well-Known Member
surely these are no different to the original lead acid batteries
New Boat Batteries
- Thread starter Sailfree
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surely these are no different to the original lead acid batteries
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
I hear what you say and finding hard facts about battery charging is very difficult, in practise batteries live in a hostile environment a far cry from bench charging discipline and as I said previously Lab quality reference metering is not available for us mere mortals on a boat in the sea Just because the voltage comes from an alternator the battery really doesn't care, add a splitting diode and things get even more misty, the battery charger of course bi passes the diode. but why after 18 months at 14.6v is there no loss of electrolyte in my batteries? could it be, perish the thought, that Crystec, a company that makes its living manufacturing battery chargers knows a thing or two about batteries?
Therefore, at the end of day the best we can say is - its complicated - and no one really knows.
(I don't do the equalisation charge because the boat is on/off shore power or genny many times in a month)
Plevier
Well-Known Member
Yes it is complicated and not precise.
However Crystec are out of line with other charger manufacturers. Have a look at Sterling, Merlin, Victron etc, they all say different but I don't think anyone else is near Crystec's figures.
With my background with a major battery manufacturer I also admit there is variation between different manufacturers' figures, but I think rather less, and of course I would assume that we know better than the charger manufacturers!
Quote "but why after 18 months at 14.6V is there no loss of electrolyte in my batteries?"
I think that depends how much time they have spent sitting at that voltage while already in a high state of charge. There's nothing wrong with it as a recharge voltage, and if the boat is in heavy use with loads going on and off and not on mains all the time, no problem.
I'm saying if it is left at 14.6V unoccupied and fully charged for substantial lengths of time, you will lose water.
However Crystec are out of line with other charger manufacturers. Have a look at Sterling, Merlin, Victron etc, they all say different but I don't think anyone else is near Crystec's figures.
With my background with a major battery manufacturer I also admit there is variation between different manufacturers' figures, but I think rather less, and of course I would assume that we know better than the charger manufacturers!
Quote "but why after 18 months at 14.6V is there no loss of electrolyte in my batteries?"
I think that depends how much time they have spent sitting at that voltage while already in a high state of charge. There's nothing wrong with it as a recharge voltage, and if the boat is in heavy use with loads going on and off and not on mains all the time, no problem.
I'm saying if it is left at 14.6V unoccupied and fully charged for substantial lengths of time, you will lose water.
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Marsupial
Well-Known Member
Troubador, Thanks for that I will keep my eye on it.
Boo2
Well-Known Member
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
I think Ihave Crystec charger and Tudor batteries as OE. I note that both the link (provided earlier ) and the Varta batteries seem better quality as they are guartanteed for 4 yrs. But the are termed lead calcium.
Anyone know if lead calcium is the same as lead acid.
Edit - been googling and found this article http://www.landiss.com/battery.htm
It appears that lead acid batteries are best charged at circa 14.2 V but lead calcium need circa 14.8V. Cannot find out what type Tudor batteries were as now part of Exide group.
Does anyone know what type otherwise need to wait until on boat and check charge voltage with a meter.
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Plevier
Well-Known Member
Lead antimony and lead calcium are both lead acid.
The landliss article you cite although quite good misses out one step. Lead antimony batteries used to have up to about 8% antimony and this did lead to high gassing which worsened during life as antimony migrated from the + plate and deposited on the - plate.
At the same time as the US moved to calcium (typically around 0.1%) European manufacturers improved casting techniques and reduced the antimony content to around 1.5% at which level the gassing becomes almost as low as calcium and does not increase during life as antimony migration doesn't occur. So the calcium advantage becomes less strong. Add to this that antimony ones tend to have better high temperature resistance and better deep discharge resistance than calcium (contrary to many marketing claims).
Manufacturers prefer calcium now because it's not as toxic as antimony. When I was in the business pollution controls on antimony were severe and they are more stringent now.
I am pretty sure the Tudors will be low antimony. Certainly my Crystec charger is on its antimony setting.
Was it you looking at the Varta Hobby battery 813 010 000? That is actually hybrid - one plate calcium, one antimony. (I think from Varta's website that that is last year's model and they are going to all calcium with their "Professional" range)
As we've already gone through in this thread, different battery and charger manufacturers will all tell you different things. Frankly it's not quite as critical as some make out and depends also on details of usage. If you're a sailing liveaboard topping up charge when you can, you need to work at the top of the acceptable range. If you're a weekender but leave the batteries on float charge every week, go lower.
I still say that Crystec's calcium settings are OTT, especially their float.
If my next batteries are calcium, I will probably leave the charger on its antimony setting, I may tweak it up a bit. I will emphatically not use the calcium setting.
If you don't need batteries immediately I would wait until spring. The pattern was always that manufacturers would build car batteries in spring and summer ready to stock distributors for the autumn rush with the first frost. Oddballs like leisure batteries are slotted into production in the winter. They can be getting on for a year old on retailers shelves if you buy late in the year.
Before you buy a cheap battery, compare its weight with a dearer one of the same capacity. Lead costs money but gives life.
Most warranties have more holes than a colander - don't buy on that basis!
Sailfree
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone for such a helpful responses esp the above.
At present looking at the Alphaline XV31 as suggested on the link in this thread from Battery megastore. Its sealed calcium and dimensions are the same as existing. I intend to replace all 4 batteries with these and they are quoting a good price for 4. So good tempted to buy now rather than next spring. They state that they have less warantee claims on these than Varta. Both have 4 yr warrantees.
Wt is 24.9kg for 330x172x242 battery which seems to be slightly heavier than others of same size.
Boat is charter boat so batteries will be OK this winter as only weekend charters and regularly left on charge for full top up. Just tempted to buy now when price is right!
Would they deteriorate much if I bought now and fitted next spring?
Need to check the +ve position though before buying. Probably a good idea to check charge rate (engine done 2500hrs!) of both alternator and charger.
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NickRobinson
Well-Known Member
Quote "Most warranties have more holes than a colander - don't buy on that basis!"
Not kidding- here's T&Cs for claims from YUASA (other brands available...)
http://www.yuasasverige.se/documents/11/7/Articles/182/1/granti_test.pdf
Seems to say 'you've used this... you've broken it..'
Count all the red 'reject claim' tags in the pdf.
Nick
Not kidding- here's T&Cs for claims from YUASA (other brands available...)
http://www.yuasasverige.se/documents/11/7/Articles/182/1/granti_test.pdf
Seems to say 'you've used this... you've broken it..'
Count all the red 'reject claim' tags in the pdf.
Nick
Plevier
Well-Known Member
They state that they have less warantee claims on these than Varta.
Evidence? Like for like battery types? I'm very surprised if it's true. I admit no experience with Alphaline and no idea who makes them but Varta are very good.
Both have 4 yr warrantees.
Here are some Alphaline terms. I haven't found Varta's, probably no more generous!
Alphaline Leisure Batteries
The warranty of Alphaline Leisure Batteries is reduced if used for the following applications.
Live Aboard usage: 1 Year
Commercial and Industrial usage: 1 Year ########## I should think chartering is commercial wouldn't you?
Electric fence usage: 6 Months
.Q. I think my battery might be faulty, how do I claim under the warranty?
If you have fully charged your battery and think it is faulty there are 2 options on how to process your warranty claim:
Option 1 -Having the battery tested yourself
· Take the battery to a local garage for a battery test. Make sure the battery is fully charged and over 12volts when the test is performed. Ensure that the voltage is shown on the test report.
· Send the test report via fax, email or post with a copy of your invoice or order number (Invoice will be emailed to you). Make sure your address and phone number are included.
· When we have received the test report and the invoice we will call you to arrange a new product to be sent to you and collection of the faulty item.
Option 2 - Returning the battery for Test
· Call us with your invoice / order number, we will then take a deposit of £20 and collect your battery for testing.
· If the battery is faulty we will refund your deposit and send you a new battery along with a voucher for 5% off your next order.
· If your battery is not faulty we will send the battery back to you with the print out from the tester. The battery will be sent back fully charged and ready to use.
Battery Megastore UK Ltd do not refund the cost of any Test Reports received.
Under the warranty no refunds will be issued.
These documents must be sent to us via:
Email: sales@batterymegastore.co.uk
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Plevier
Well-Known Member
And Yuasa is a huge reputable company.
What hope have you with a cheap own label one made by heaven knows who?
Plevier
Well-Known Member
No not if you keep them cool and dry and either on low voltage float or give a refresh charge with a good quality charger every 3 months.
How do you know they have been properly cared for over the last 9 months or so?
Batteries deteriorate more in high temperatures than low, especiallyif not fully charged. Your car battery typically fails over the summer - but you don't know until there is a frost and then it can't cope.
Plevier
Well-Known Member
Sorry for late addition to this thread but I have removed one of my Tudor batteries (original Jeanneau fitment) today because it has failed - one cell shorted.
The label on it lists the popular vehicles that it fits.
That seems to answer the question of whether Jeanneau fitted car or leisure batteries!
The label on it lists the popular vehicles that it fits.
That seems to answer the question of whether Jeanneau fitted car or leisure batteries!
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
I came to the same conclusion last winter when I was checking my batteries. Searches for Tudor failed to be conclusive but codes on the batteries turned up a few documents for German equiv. "lorry" batteries or lists of equiv. batteries suited to fairly heavy vehicles.
I decided that they weren't designed for deep cycle use (CCA figure is a bit of a giveaway as well).
Mine were a mixed bunch after 4 years. Capacity tests showed 100% (engine), 80%, 70% & 65% though all held at least 12.8V for 6 weeks after charging.
I switched to 4xTrojan 6V T105s for domestic bank as the price wasn't much more than the leisure ones I looked at. Trojan also confirmed that their 12V marine batteries had a much lower no. of cycles than T105s. I concluded that even Trojan marine batteries were just "leisure" type (they also quoted a CCA), perhaps better quality (or just more expensive).
I've been living on the boat for 6 months now and am happy with the T105s. They weren't even that expensive compared to the various other leisure batteries I could have fitted.
I decided that they weren't designed for deep cycle use (CCA figure is a bit of a giveaway as well).
Mine were a mixed bunch after 4 years. Capacity tests showed 100% (engine), 80%, 70% & 65% though all held at least 12.8V for 6 weeks after charging.
I switched to 4xTrojan 6V T105s for domestic bank as the price wasn't much more than the leisure ones I looked at. Trojan also confirmed that their 12V marine batteries had a much lower no. of cycles than T105s. I concluded that even Trojan marine batteries were just "leisure" type (they also quoted a CCA), perhaps better quality (or just more expensive).
I've been living on the boat for 6 months now and am happy with the T105s. They weren't even that expensive compared to the various other leisure batteries I could have fitted.
Relax
Well-Known Member
....but 5kg LESS than the equivalent Exide ..........
jwilson
Well-Known Member
I looked at these switch clusters but having an emergency parallel switch right next to the normal battery switches is a recipe for charterers "just turning everything on" and then flattening the engine battery along with the domestics.
I preferred to fit a separate bridging switch, with a removable key handle that is stored in the back of the chart table, with a tag on it that says "IF YOU USE THIS OTHER THAN IN EMERGENCY YOU MAY FLATTEN THE ENGINE BATTERY AND BE UNABLE TO START THE ENGINE" or something similar.
For a smaller charter boat I have two cheapish leisure batteries as domestics and one Varta proper starter battery - the engine battery is the critical one. If the OP has had 8 years out of domestic batteries on a charter boat he's doing very well indeed.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Boat batteries
Having read this (and many other threads) on the subject I feel we agonise and spend far too much over/on batteries.
In the 20 odd years I've owned this boat, the longest life I've had out of a battery is 12 years and the least is 3 1/2.
Old-fashioned, open lead-antimony batteries have given the best service and longest life and have always been cheaper than "branded" sealed batteries.
So I buy the cheapest locally produced "open" batteries I can find - budgeting on about €0.80 - €1.0 per AH.
Unfortunately two of the cramped battery boxes in the boat will only take a 42 case size, these are nearly all now sealed, lead/calcium, more expensive, shorter lived and far less easily charged and reluctant to give up this charge in use. I find the 42 available in between 88-105 ah. The most recent, allegedly 88ah, was appreciably heavier than the Korean 105ah one it replaced.
I have to view with extreme scepticism the capacity, benefit and superiority claims made by battery manufacturers.
Sealed batteries, kept on the shelf are always going to give inferior service, one of the reasons I prefer open lead acid because they have to be filled and charged by the supplier - beware anyone who can let you have immediate supply of a battery, it's been slowly dying on the shelf.
As already pointed out "warranties" are painful to claim on and so riddled with caveats that they're worthless - so, IMHO, is the veneration accorded to "brand-name". The shortest lives I've had have been with Varta and ACDelco the longest with a Lucas.
Still it's something to help while away the boring winter days - here its 25C, bright sunshine and almost windless - and that damn 40m gin-palace parked next to me is about to leave and shower me with his exhaust-spray.
Having read this (and many other threads) on the subject I feel we agonise and spend far too much over/on batteries.
In the 20 odd years I've owned this boat, the longest life I've had out of a battery is 12 years and the least is 3 1/2.
Old-fashioned, open lead-antimony batteries have given the best service and longest life and have always been cheaper than "branded" sealed batteries.
So I buy the cheapest locally produced "open" batteries I can find - budgeting on about €0.80 - €1.0 per AH.
Unfortunately two of the cramped battery boxes in the boat will only take a 42 case size, these are nearly all now sealed, lead/calcium, more expensive, shorter lived and far less easily charged and reluctant to give up this charge in use. I find the 42 available in between 88-105 ah. The most recent, allegedly 88ah, was appreciably heavier than the Korean 105ah one it replaced.
I have to view with extreme scepticism the capacity, benefit and superiority claims made by battery manufacturers.
Sealed batteries, kept on the shelf are always going to give inferior service, one of the reasons I prefer open lead acid because they have to be filled and charged by the supplier - beware anyone who can let you have immediate supply of a battery, it's been slowly dying on the shelf.
As already pointed out "warranties" are painful to claim on and so riddled with caveats that they're worthless - so, IMHO, is the veneration accorded to "brand-name". The shortest lives I've had have been with Varta and ACDelco the longest with a Lucas.
Still it's something to help while away the boring winter days - here its 25C, bright sunshine and almost windless - and that damn 40m gin-palace parked next to me is about to leave and shower me with his exhaust-spray.
Plevier
Well-Known Member
I agree with a lot of what you say but I strongly disagree with this.
Filling and charging properly is not that easy and very few distributors do it thoroughly. Pouring the acid in and putting it straight in service as many "corner shops" used to is a recipe for poor performance and life. Dry batteries also deteriorate in storage, not just filled ones. I can assure you from industry experience it's a major problem. That's why supplied dry ex-factory is now rare (unless it's imported). Imported ones are usually filled and charged en masse at the main distributor and then sent out to local wholesalers and retailers for the same reason.
You are much better with a factory filled and charged one (Just to be clear, I am still talking about flooded batteries, not jumping to AGM). It will last at least 6 months from production without recharging without ill effects and you're unlikely to find one on the shelf that long. If it does reach recharge date, that's a much easier process for the distributor than filling and charging a dry one.
Very surprised you had trouble with a Varta but everyone has some fault rate.
Experience of Delco (Freedom?) was mixed. Some used to swear by them, some at them. Have you seen Delco batteries in UK recently? Not sure they still supply.
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Plevier
Well-Known Member
In which case I'd go for the heavy one, never mind what capacity the Korean one claims to have! How long did the Korean one last you?
BTW I can get Korean ones for far less than your suggested cost per Ah - if I believe their Ah figures! Your suggested cost looks OK for good quality wet batteries. Some Korean/Chinese ones are OK if made for branded names to their spec - but there is some rubbish around too.
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