New 64 Obsolete

Renegade_Master

Renegade_Master

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Did I read right in MBY this boat has 4 yes 4 x 435hp engines.

So four lots of service parts four lots of labour charges, four chances of large failure bill and so on. Its bad, enough with two, has the world gone mad?
 
Not quite

That might seem valid at first sight however, there are very good reasons for 4 X IPS, reasons which make a lot of sense .

Firstly, four small engines take up a lot less space than two monster 1200 hp engines with gearboxes, prop shafts etc. The IPS units can been set right back at the aft end of the boat taking up only half the space of conventional drives allowing the master mid cabin an extra four feet of length. Four feet makes a massive difference to the usable space in a cabin.

Secondly, the service cost are not necessarily more expensive, two MTU or MAN 1200's come with hefty bills, two D6 services are about the same a one service on a single big MTU or similar.

Third, with the drives mounted far below the hull there is virtually no smokey start up or fumes when moving along, the drives are all rubber mounted and with the engines so far back in the hull they are generally much quieter.

Fourth, the fuel burn is much less than two 1200 hp conventional drives, you can also knock out two engines if you are just tootling along enjoying the view, running only two small 5.5 litre engines rather than two 16 litre engines. Because of the lesser fuel burn you need less tankage hence less weight to haul around.

And fifth you of course have the benefit of the joystick and the maneuverability it offers along with all the interfaces it allows.

Maybe not quite gone mad but rather mad about IPS ! :-)

PS just recieved a press release the other day from VP saying they have just delivered their 20,000 th IPS unit ! not bad for four years from zero !
 
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Nautical said:
Secondly, the service cost are not necessarily more expensive, two MTU or MAN 1200's come with hefty bills, two D6 services are about the same a one service on a single big MTU or similar.
Click to expand...

Where do you get this info from
I have two 1200hp MTUs and I dont think you are actually correct.

The fact is that my MTUs have already been less to service than the old Volvos that I had before.

The service interval to begin with is twice that of any Volvo. Then there's all the extras that you need on Volvos - three times as many oil filters to begin with - then there's anodes - none on MTUs - OK there is a lot of oil on a 1200 HP engine but there's also a lot in 4 smaller engines.

This shoots down your service argument so lets look at the others - point 1 less space - this must ne ?ollocks as well - for each engine you need space around it to get at parts for servicing - have you ever looked at a 1200 MTU - its a V8 and the size in relation to its HP is really quite small - much smaller per HP than my old D12s for example.

So whats all this about the smokey exhausts - a modern shaft drive boat has underwater exhausts anyway so I would think exactly the same amount as the IPS units

Fuel burn then - you probably have something here - although I havent seen any real comparasons.

Benefit of joystick - is this really important - on the scale of things?

Now to a really important point - corrosion and robustness - do you really want all thay alloy underneath where it can get corroded - just look at the hassle you have to go through with outdrives to keep them in tip top condition. Shafts are so simple there is only a simple bearing and a simple gland to service. And you would be much more likely to damage IPS than a shaft boat if you were to scrape a muddy bottom.

Sorry - I dont like IPS and I'm sure there are lots of people out there that think the same. And I just had to correct your points - especially the maintenance costs.
 
My point was not about the IPS system more about the merits of 4 engines instead of two. Did I not see in the same issue an Atlantis 50 footer with only two enigines on IPS. So a further 14ft in length warrantly two more engines.

That said I do believe IPS is currently limited to a maximum HP per unit? which helps explain it.

Do the new volvo engines have compressors like the old KAD's? if so then thats a huge amount of V belts and.................4 of those bloody compressor (very expensive) belt tensioners that are always going and taking the belts with them
 
Clive

I read that article on the Atlantis 50 as well.
They call it a 4 x 4 which is where I think you thought it was a 4 engine boat.
In fact, 4 x 4 is missleading
They mean that you can specify one of 4 styles when you order.
Either a 2 of 3 cabin and with / without patio doors.
Any combination of the above - i.e. 4 different options.

Not very clear is it?


?????
 
The IPS units are not made of alloy, there a bronze type material, but yes I can see your point, the labour to service 4 engines and drives would be astronomical compared to 2 v8 mtu/ mercedes benz units there is no way 1 man could service 4 engines and drives in the same time 1 man could service 2 v8 engines not even on a test rig or in a workshop or at a manufacturers/ dealer.

Then there is the drives, anodes, props to remove, oil to drain off etc.
On a gearbox there is a filter, then drain oil and refill, anode in oil cooler and thats about it.

Sorry Trevor cant agree.

Oh and why are Inwards slashing your absolute prices along with the Pearls, though I have an idea about whats going off at pearl, bet you do too.??
 
Hi Paul,

Sorry don't know about Pearl afraid, the three ABS at Inwards have been reduced in price on average by about 4% - 7%, end of season / boat show time etc, nothing untoward there really just getting in before SIBS kicks off, rather have no have stock sitting there during the winter.


I may stand corrected on the service thing, apologies if I misled, a D6 is £599 + vat for a main service I 'll be honest I dont know if an MTU 1200 is £600 a main service it was misleading if I suggested if it was more.
 
actually you are four times more likely to have an engine failure at sea, you need to divide the MTBF by number of engines. Likely with marine engines that you will always have a problem with one of them.
 
Mike

Apologies if I offended re IPS etc, I know you are no fan of the system, perhaps insensitve of me to suggest there were up sides to IPS installation. Your P67 is a great bit of kit and I wasn't suggesting shaft drive was obsolete either merely defending the benefits of IPS multiple installation.

With regards to the space, yes mulitiple installation takes more beam in the engine room but in the beam of a 70' that really isn't an issue. However the space required to fit an IPS 600 unit is only 2185mm from the transom to the front of the engine. How you use the extra space ahead of the engine is up to the builder, bigger crew cabin, more space for ancillary machinery or bring the engine room bulkhead further aft to give a bigger mid cabin, at least you have more options is the point I guess.

Corrosion of the legs, so far we have seen no major problem over an above that of convensional drive, they are bronze, a similar material to P brackets, rubber stocks etc.

exhausts, well yes modern engines are far less smokey of course but IPS is much further under the water indeed right under the hull about 900 mm below the keel so when you are moving along the exhaust gases are deposited further aft than if the exhaust exits from the transom.

Joy stick, whether you like it or hate as a non believer ccustomers love it, given a demostration of what you can do with some basic training is a big confidence booster to many people, you can argue the merits of whether that is a good or bad idea but what ever way you look at it the fact remains it sells boats. Personally I think it is great, it builds confidence quickly, takes all the worry out of berthing in tidal or strong wind conditions which has to be a bonus for those that are new to boating or never rack up enough hours a season to be tip top on all aspects of berthing and close quarter manouvering.

Fuel burn is already a proven, we know from our own tests that we save a minimum of 20% at certain speeds and up to 30% over shafts on twin installations. I think that has been well documented in various independant tests.

Apologies again re the service issue if indeed your MTU's a cheaper to service than twin or quad D6's , it was over zealousness in my defence of IPS but I would be happy to stand corrected if indeed MTU's are cheaper to service, I am sure you are correct.

Thanks for raising your points.

Trev
 
Service intervals on the D12's are 200 hours, not sure about D6 but old KAD300s were 100 hours so my servicing costs are now less then before as I only get serviced once a year not 2. Overall you might save with the fuel saving though.

Would boat still plane with 3 engines? That would be a real benefit.
 
D6's are every 200 hours or once a year.

The 64/70 will plane with three engines but they are running hard to maintain a reasonable speed so actually burn slightly more than quads running at less than 3000 rpm, you also have the drag of the 'dead' leg to factor in.
 
DPH said:
Service intervals on the D12's are 200 hours, not sure about D6 but old KAD300s were 100 hours so my servicing costs are now less then before as I only get serviced once a year not 2. Overall you might save with the fuel saving though.

Would boat still plane with 3 engines? That would be a real benefit.
Click to expand...

Just as a comparason MTU recommend 500 hours or 2 years between services. You can get longer if you use a higher grade oil though. The other important fact with MTU is that they dont specify thier own oil - indeed, they actually provide a really useful document that classifies all the oils and manufacturers out there. They classify them into three grades - Category 1 2 and 3. See here
http://www.mtu-online.com/fileadmin/fm-dam/mtu-global/pdf/valuecare/A001061_33E.pdf

Category 1 is the real krap stuff - I dont know but IMO thats the stuff the Volvo use.
Category 2 is the stuff that they supply when the engines are new - as I say good for 500 hours or 2 years
Then there's the Category 3 but I believe that this stuff is too expensive in our case.

In the past, I've had great results from Shell Rimular which MTU put into their Category 2 oils. It had definate benefits when we used it in our old Volvo D12s.

Those of you engineers reading this might like to look at the MTU doc - I think it provides a good cross reference.
 
So basically volvo supply cat 1 oil at cat 3 prices!

This will be the first year I'm having the service done by someone else since they are now out of warranty so will consider shell.

Thanks
 
Hurricane said:
Clive

I read that article on the Atlantis 50 as well.
They call it a 4 x 4 which is where I think you thought it was a 4 engine boat.
In fact, 4 x 4 is missleading
They mean that you can specify one of 4 styles when you order.
Either a 2 of 3 cabin and with / without patio doors.
Any combination of the above - i.e. 4 different options.

Not very clear is it?


?????
Click to expand...

Bit feeble really, hanging the idea of massive flexibility on, err, youse can have it wiv patio doors or, like, wivvout.
 
DPH said:
So basically volvo supply cat 1 oil at cat 3 prices!

This will be the first year I'm having the service done by someone else since they are now out of warranty so will consider shell.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Others on this forum have switched to Shell Rimula with similar results.

For me, our D12s were always showing slight leaks. I'm very fussy about keeping the engine room clean so that you can spot a problem early. I was always wiping the floor under the engines on our old Sealine until I changed to the Rimula - after that all the drips just went away.

It seems that others on this forum have had similar results.

I dont put it down, so much, to the good results of the Shell product as to the extremely poor results of the Volvo ?rap - IMHO of course.

And yes, I do believe that Volvo supply Cat 1 oil at (well - at least) Cat 2 prices - so now you are out of warranty - why not treat your engines to some good stuff. I know you will notice the difference.
 
Hurricane said:
Ah - but only 1 in 4 chance of actually breaking down as sea.:D
Click to expand...
As an airline captain once remarked to me as he had just converted from 4 engined Boeing 747-400 to A330 twin engine, the old 747 had twice as many engines to go wrong, and four fire lighters under the fuel tanks instead of just two fire lighters. ;) ;)

Aviations been going the other way for decades, less engines, two will do on even the longest haul routes, more efficient, less drag, less maintenance, less cost per pax/mile.
 
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