negotiation after survey

[eagle160]

hi all.

Just going through the final motions of buying the boat that should hopefully take care of us for the next year (and longer) whilst we set off on our circuit of the med (can't reveal yet what boat it is as we're in the middle of negotiations and it would be pretty easy to back solve which exact boat I'm talking about ).

The survey has now been completed and there are some works and issues that are identified. All quite positive and nothing really material in isolation but in total it adds up to £2-2.5kish (rudder delamination, rope cutter replacement, servicing of certain items) on top of usual maintenance like anti-fouling and buying some safety equipment that's not there (lifevests, flares, some other items) which in total is another £1k ish.

The seller has been pretty flexible so far but I suspect that he feels he's selling the boat as a bargain. At the same time we've been pretty flexible as well so far (the boat is lying in the med and to get to this stage has taken some time and effort on both parts already).

The offer we had accepted is 15% under the asking price, but that asking price was top dollar anyway in my opinion. I think we're pretty much paying "market value" (if such concept exists in this market and for boats!) which is validated in the survey. It is a lot of money though (£75k) and would expect the boat to be in top shape for the price we're paying (there are 7 year older boats of same type available at ~60% of the price of ours).

In the seller's view this is usual maintenance for a boat of this age (15 years). We do have a bit of spare budget for maintenance but did not expect to spend this on rudder delamination (which could be a £100 repair or a £2000 rudder re-build...).

Naive question, is it quite common to negotiate after survey ? What would you do?

 

[Sandyman]

Of course you should negotiate. Its a buyers market. If the vendor is not going to pay for the repairs and install expected safety equipment
then you will have to. Which means you want a further discount.

 

[Tranona]

Usual to negotiate if the new "faults" are significant. However of your items it is really only the rudder delamination that is worth making an issue of. Maintenance type items - oil change, minor repairs etc not worth fighting over. What is wrong with the rope cutter that needs replacing? - usually only the bearings that need changing.

If you feel you have got a good price already then concentrate on getting some contribution to the rudder. Talk to your surveyor about the best way to deal with the repair. There is not enough to justify trying to pull out which will mean the costs so far will be lost.

 

[ribrage]

hi all.

Just going through the final motions of buying the boat that should hopefully take care of us for the next year (and longer) whilst we set off on our circuit of the med (can't reveal yet what boat it is as we're in the middle of negotiations and it would be pretty easy to back solve which exact boat I'm talking about ).

The survey has now been completed and there are some works and issues that are identified. All quite positive and nothing really material in isolation but in total it adds up to £2-2.5kish (rudder delamination, rope cutter replacement, servicing of certain items) on top of usual maintenance like anti-fouling and buying some safety equipment that's not there (lifevests, flares, some other items) which in total is another £1k ish.

The seller has been pretty flexible so far but I suspect that he feels he's selling the boat as a bargain. At the same time we've been pretty flexible as well so far (the boat is lying in the med and to get to this stage has taken some time and effort on both parts already).

The offer we had accepted is 15% under the asking price, but that asking price was top dollar anyway in my opinion. I think we're pretty much paying "market value" (if such concept exists in this market and for boats!) which is validated in the survey. It is a lot of money though (£75k) and would expect the boat to be in top shape for the price we're paying (there are 7 year older boats of same type available at ~60% of the price of ours).

In the seller's view this is usual maintenance for a boat of this age (15 years). We do have a bit of spare budget for maintenance but did not expect to spend this on rudder delamination (which could be a £100 repair or a £2000 rudder re-build...).

Naive question, is it quite common to negotiate after survey ? What would you do?

Depends how badly you want "that" boat ? Its only worth what you are willing to pay for it , if they want to sell it badly enough they will drop the price, if you want to buy the boat badly enough you will up the price

Im a complete tw*t when it comes to making low offers on things be it cars, motor bikes houses or boats and most the time i get a three word answer ... Occasionally i dont

 

[macd]

Depends how badly you want "that" boat ? Its only worth what you are willing to pay for it , if they want to sell it badly enough they will drop the price, if you want to buy the boat badly enough you will up the price

Aren't we past that stage? The OP has presumably made an offer which has been accepted. Thus there is presumably a contract in place (written or not) to that effect and binding on both parties. Yes, there is room for negotiation, and I'd certainly say that a delaminating rudder is cause for that (presuming it wasn't declared pre-contract); the rest is small beer.

 

[Richard10002]

Very common to negotiate. I'd negotiate with you over the rudder and rope cutter. The others are all things that you should have assumed or been aware of at the time of the offer.

On the rest, I might tell you to get stuffed, even if it meant cutting off my nose to spite my face

How did you arrive at £2-2.5k if you dont have a precise cost for the rudder.

How did the surveyor decide that the rudder is delaminating? Has he said it is definitely delaminating, and has he given an indication as to how long it might last if you do nothing? The surveyor might be wrong. When my boat was surveyed, the surveyor saw some lines that he thought were cracks in the hull and was about to write it on his pad. I pointed out that it was a scratch in the painted wooden support that the batteries sat on.

If you haven't got more than £2k for stuff after purchase on a £75k, have you really got enough money to own and run it?

Surely the existence, or not, of safety equipment, was obvious at the time of viewing? Ditto the need for antifouling and servicing of things.



Having said that.... When I sold my boat, I had already decided that if the negotiation after survey was £5k or less, I'd do the deal..... whatever the items were. So I did the deal at £5k

When I bought our narrowboat, I didn't negotiate, because it was worth about £7k more than I was paying, so a couple of grand of surveyors bits and pieces were neither here more there.

at the end of the day, either of you can walk away if you don't like the deal.... Are you prepared to risk him not selling? Is he prepared to risk you not buying?

 

[maby]

Generally speaking, you will have agreed a price and signed a contract before you go to survey. If the survey comes up with previously undisclosed faults, you can seek to negotiate, but you should be realistic about it. Really it comes down to a question of the cost of fixing the issues as a proportion of the agreed price for the boat - if the survey uncovers £2000 of outstanding work on an agreed price of £200,000, then you possibly should take it on the chin. £2000 on an agreed price of £10,000 is arguably much more cause for renegotiation. I seem to remember a broker once telling me that they would consider anything more than 10% of the agreed price as grounds for tearing up the contract and starting again.

 

[Alan ashore]

Assuming there is a formal contract in place between you and the seller, then at risk of stating the obvious, I would start by reading its terms. It is usual for contracts to effectively invite negotiation by an obligation on the seller to rectify faults disclosed by survey, balanced of course by the right for you to reject the boat.

But it's not unheard of or unreasonable for a seller to specify in the contract that no rectification or adjustment in price will be made as a consequence of defects found during survey, leaving the buyer with the choice at the end of the day of completing as seen, or walking away. (This makes sense for both parties in the case of truly bargain basement sales, which yours doesn't appear to be.)

That said, of course everything is always potentially negotiable, and if you don't ask, you don't get!
A.

 

[AIDY]

having just sold a boat, I excepted a price subject to survey, but in the contract put a clause of i'm willing to pay for major repairs up to xxxxx amount. and nothing else after....

considering the boat is xxxx years old and any survey will find the smallest thing wrong, as long as it's notgoing to cost thousands and cause you problems in the future I would settle at a mid point for both parties.

best of luck with the new toy.

 

[eagle160]

Thanks all for very sensible advise - I've raised it with the seller leaving options open whether he wants to repair or whether he wants us to repair, in which case we will have to deduct that from the purchase price. Will keep you posted!

 

[tcm]

Hum, praps I wouldn't put it on this forum - the seller might well see it here, and if so ... now he knows how badly you want the boat.

 

[GrahamM376]

Sounds to me that the only negotiable item is the rudder. Either get the price reduced to cover repairs or, get them to repair to your surveyors satisfaction. OTOH, you say you can buy older boats for 60% of the cost of this one. The £30k difference in price will do a hell of a lot of upgrading with new equipment.

 

[maxy]

The whole purpose of a survey is to discover if she is sea worthy, and are there any faults beyond those stated at the outset. It is assumed a boat is sold in fully sea worthy condition.

If the surveyor discovers the boat is not as described you are within your rights to pull out and have your deposit refunded.

If you agreed on a survey 'subject to' Test sail and finance then you can pull out anyway, if you feel the yacht is not what you's expected or hoped for.

Once the survey reveals the true state of the yacht (i.e. undeclared faults) you have some choices, pull out, negotiate a discount or ask the seller to bring her back to declared condition. A word of warning. In the case of an item like your rudder where the cost is undetermined until inspection, it is safer for you to demand the yacht be brought to sea worthy condition.

As the other op's suggested it depends on how badly you want it. But would you but an expensive used car with defective steering, I don't think so.

Hope it all goes well for you.

Kevin

 

[Blueboatman]

My thinking too.
If it is a quality boat, yet you wish a newer one, that is indeed 30k you will lose whatever happens to the exisiting rudder, engine, sails, mattresses, woodwork etc during your ownership..
Sometimes just mentioning this stuff shows where your thoughts lie, but, you have paid for a ?£800? haul out and survey, maybe put a deposit down, ...your call. Best of luck, maybe you are the only serious offer he's had..
Once you buy, and are happy, the sums become less important of course..

Sounds to me that the only negotiable item is the rudder. Either get the price reduced to cover repairs or, get them to repair to your surveyors satisfaction. OTOH, you say you can buy older boats for 60% of the cost of this one. The £30k difference in price will do a hell of a lot of upgrading with new equipment.

 

[Kukri]

Fwiw, the standard yacht sale agreement is a dumbed down version of the Norwegian Saleform used for merchant ships. Much of the language is precisely the same. There has been plenty of litigation over the NSF and most of the terms are legally defined.

It would be unwise to assume that the sale agreement can simply be disregarded.