Navigators & General Insurance - check your policy for this clause

[Moonbeam]

We used to insure with N&G for many years, then switched to GJW for a couple of years before switching back in 2017 to Nav&Gen. At that time, they had the following clause under 'assumptions'

The vessel has not been modified (examples include but are not limited to changes to the cabin or hull, changes to the rig or additions such as a stove, generator, mains power or include a different engine than supplied, extending the superstructure, a different rig or sails). The engine is within manufacturers specifications.


Given our Westerly is from 1984 and had been re-engined along with many other 'modifications' I thought this clause was ludicrous and insisted on it's removal as a condition of taking the policy. They agreed to this.

But this years renewal, the clause is back and they say the underwriters will not remove it this time. I spoke with them and they said that they would make a note on my file that as long as 'modifiactions' had been carried out professionally, then they would be OK. But as I pointed out, how on earth can you prove this unless you have a paper trail for every minor mod going back to 1984. The chap I spoke with was very understanding that this clause is a bit difficult to take and that they were going to look at reviewing the wording of their polices, but at this time, their hands were tied.

I have cancelled our upcoming renewal and now need to find an alternative insurer... any recommendations? We have never needed to make a claim.

Maybe I'm being over cautious, but the above clause does seem like an enormous 'get out' for the insurer. Have any of you got N&G insurance with this clause? If you don't like it, I suggest you challenge it as this may help N&G in their review of policy wording

 

[colind3782]

Talk to GJW again? I've found them to be quite accommodating and good VFM

 

[CLB]

Couple of points to ponder regarding boats over a certain age.

How will the insurance company know what the boat came with out of the factory?

How will the second, third or more owner know what bits of teh biat are original and what may have been modified?

 

[PetiteFleur]

Talk to GJW again? I've found them to be quite accommodating and good VFM

I tried GJW this year but was put off by their insistence that the boat was ashore November to March, no leeway at all, I'm on a swinging mooring so maybe that was the issue so I continued with my existing insurer.

 

[colind3782]

I tried GJW this year but was put off by their insistence that the boat was ashore November to March, no leeway at all, I'm on a swinging mooring so maybe that was the issue so I continued with my existing insurer.

I certainly don't have that restriction but then we're marina based. Good luck.

 

[Concerto]

This question has been raised on the Westerly Owners Forum. Read the answer for clarity of its meaning.
https://westerly-owners.co.uk/profile/?T3619/

 

[mainsail1]

As someone in Insurance for a chunk of my life, I think you are reading too much into this clause. What they are trying to exclude is a Westerly that is no longer a Westerly in very significant ways such as having a 110hp engine or with a hull that has been extended by 2 meters. I have no doubt they are not worried by updated or renewed items or indeed any additions that don't radically change the boat they thought they were insuring.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

If I were you I'd write a letter listing the mods you know about and state that they constitute normal maintenance and upgrades as expected on a boat that age. Ask them to attach the statement to your file and then if they don't cancel your insurance, there is no argument for a refusal based on undisclosed modifications.

 

[Moonbeam]

If I were you I'd write a letter listing the mods you know about and state that they constitute normal maintenance and upgrades as expected on a boat that age. Ask them to attach the statement to your file and then if they don't cancel your insurance, there is no argument for a refusal based on undisclosed modifications.

That's a good idea.

In the meantime, GJW came in at only £10 more than N&G and I can not find any clauses in GJW policy about modifications... so they do win there. However, as has been pointed out above, they seem awkward regarding when the vessel is in commission or ashore, asking for exact dates in advance! This was one of the reasons I left them last time as even a conversation on the phone failed to clarify if there was any reasonable leeway in these dates and if I would be covered if they were not exactly met.

 

[Birdseye]

Yes that clause is completely unacceptable. Not only is it impossible to document past changes but I work on my own boat whether it be re-riggning the mast or replacing the engine and I do it a great deal more carefully than any yard apprentice would.

 

[ithet]

That's a good idea.

In the meantime, GJW came in at only £10 more than N&G and I can not find any clauses in GJW policy about modifications... so they do win there. However, as has been pointed out above, they seem awkward regarding when the vessel is in commission or ashore, asking for exact dates in advance! This was one of the reasons I left them last time as even a conversation on the phone failed to clarify if there was any reasonable leeway in these dates and if I would be covered if they were not exactly met.

I am with GJW and my layup dates vary each year. I usually tell them after I know they dates, however, they have told me that as I have a '12 month in commission' policy the cover is valid all year round whatever.

As to the N&G policy, surely these terms are the 'assumptions' under which the quote was made, and provided you have a trail that you have informed the broker of any changes/differences and they have not re-quoted then you are covered.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am with GJW and my layup dates vary each year. I usually tell them after I know they dates, however, they have told me that as I have a '12 month in commission' policy the cover is valid all year round whatever.

My policy with them says (I paraphrase) "Off the swinging mooring and laid up no later than 1st November; back onto the mooring no earlier than 1st April". One year the yard couldn't lift me out till 3rd November so I phoned them and they were happy to maintain cover for those extra days, free of charge.

As to the N&G policy, surely these terms are the 'assumptions' under which the quote was made, and provided you have a trail that you have informed the broker of any changes/differences and they have not re-quoted then you are covered.

Agreed. I imagine that part of the discount for owners' association insurance (I have it for the Drascombe) is a saving in overhead because all the boats are initially assumed to be the same. Telling them of significant changes from new doesn't seem like an intolerable burden - it's just the same with cars. My insurers know, but do not care, that the DS has acquired a CD player, a towbar and an LPG system since it was built.

The "professionally installed" exemption seems to be a compromise offered to the OP who for whatever reason doesn't want to tell them what changes he has made to his boat. In those circumstances it seems reasonable - generous, even - for the insurers to cover without further detail anything professionally done but exclude anything done by amateurs over the years.

 

[Moonbeam]

The "professionally installed" exemption seems to be a compromise offered to the OP who for whatever reason doesn't want to tell them what changes he has made to his boat. In those circumstances it seems reasonable - generous, even - for the insurers to cover without further detail anything professionally done but exclude anything done by amateurs over the years.

I don't know how on earth you managed to interpret that from my OP, but then you are a strange one. Perhaps you need to re-read my post.

I have nothing to hide in regards to any changes I've made as they are all normal maintenance upgrades. (new sails, folding prop. chartplotter and nav instruments etc) The point the insurer made that seems unreasonable is that they insist that ALL modifications carried out since the boat was built and BEFORE our ownership were carried out professionally. How can I possibly know/prove if they have or have not been with a boat of that age.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't know how on earth you managed to interpret that from my OP, but then you are a strange one. Perhaps you need to re-read my post.

My apologies if I have misrepresented you, but I don't think I have. In year one they asked for a list of modifications from original spec. You refused to provide them and they agreed to continue cover. In year two they asked again, you refused again, they said they would only cover professional modifications and you went elsewhere. Right?

My boat was built in 1986 and if the insurers asked I could list all significant changes since then on one side of A5, double spaced. It certainly wouldn't be enough to drive me away. In practice they know almost everything because it's in the insurance survey report - do N&G perhaps waive the need for surveys for WOA members?

I have nothing to hide in regards to any changes I've made as they are all normal maintenance upgrades. (new sails, folding prop. chartplotter and nav instruments etc)

Then with all due respect I can't see why you wouldn't simply tell them this.

The point the insurer made that seems unreasonable is that they insist that ALL modifications carried out since the boat was built and BEFORE our ownership were carried out professionally. How can I possibly know/prove if they have or have not been with a boat of that age.

As I understand your OP, they only imposed that as a condition of cover for modifications of which they had not been specifically notified. You list the modifications, they cover 'em.

Now of course you may not know exactly what modifications have been made, but for a 1984 Westerly I suspect it's not that hard to work out what has been changed. Is that really a hill to die on?

 

[PhillM]

Try Pantaenius. No restrictions about 12 months on a mooring, no single handed exclusions and no problems getting a substantial claim settled. No connection, just a happy customer.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Try Pantaenius. No restrictions about 12 months on a mooring, no single handed exclusions and no problems getting a substantial claim settled. No connection, just a happy customer.

GJW don't necessarily have restrictions about time on mooring - it depends where the mooring is.

 

[FairMaid]

I have checked my policy documentation (Bishop Skinner RYA scheme - underwritten by N&G) but can see no reference to this clause - I have contacted Bishop Skinner to check as I have replaced the engine in my Moody 376 - a Beta 43 for the original Thorneycroft - and nav equipment has been upgraded - and lots of other inevitable minor “stuff”.

I am inclined to agree with Mainsail1 (I am also ex insurance - with underwriting experience) that underwriters are not concerned with any “normal” upgrades. My Moody 376 is still a Moody 376.

I will post anything of interest when I hear from Bishoo Skinner.

 

[rowanloh]

I too have had this clause appear this year. I challenged it and got the same response as you. I will probably leave on this basis next year. I also hope the Westerly Owners Association stop their relationship with N&G as a result of this because I agree it is a totally impractical clause for older boats.

 

[STATUE]

GJW refused to pay out when an 'insured' boat by them broke off its mooring and smashed into a neighbouring boat. WHAT ABOUT STARTING UP OUR OWN 'YACHTING' insurance company - therefore keeping a grip on what's being slipped into Ts & Cs.

 

[vociferousMeldrew]

I tried GJW this year but was put off by their insistence that the boat was ashore November to March, no leeway at all, I'm on a swinging mooring so maybe that was the issue so I continued with my existing insurer.

GJW insured me afloat for 12 months on a swinging mooring. Their knowledge of the degree of winter exposure on specific stretches of the lower Beaulieu River was impressive, I was told I could stay afloat for 12 months providing I was up river of a certain buoy number which coincided to the point where the river topology changes from open salt marsh to sheltered river valley.