My very first colregs thread - rowers

[prv]

If the rowing boat was stopped in the water or hove to, she was not being driven by her power. Does that mean the sailing boat was better able to manouvre?

In practice, no. As I said, they need only have taken another stroke or two and I'd have passed astern of them. But I don't know what the theory says.

Pete

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Really the key point in your account is nothing to do with the rowers but the coach in what was an unambiguous power driven vessel. The most satisfying thing would have been to have run him down and tacked to avoid the rowers.......

 

[prv]

The most satisfying thing would have been to have run him down and tacked to avoid the rowers.......

Heh. Regardless of the general obligation to avoid collision, I don't think that the avoiding-the-rowers part would have been practical. Not without prior testing of how well KS answers the helm at slow speed with an inflatable and noisy bearded man wrapped round her bow. I suspect not well

Pete

 

[Ludd]

5 blasts definitely the way to go,but I doubt if the pillock in the inflatable would have understood!

 

[Jamesuk]

GREAT QUESTION having had a look at the other thread people always look for Stand on and Give way and completely forgetting there seamanship and responsibilities while at sea. These are my thoughts (conclusion at the bottom)

5 blasts definitely the way to go,but I doubt if the pillock in the inflatable would have understood!

Get sensible - If the oasman were zig- zagging there way up a channel then fine; 5 shorts blasts.

I am prestty sure I read that they were underway but not making way (dead in the water) getting a team chat from there coach. Knowing this I would suggest Ruler 8

Action to avoid a collision.

(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.

If there is no choice for Part C of rule 8 then

(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel shall slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion. (let your sails out)

BUT as far as the rowers are concerned

(f)

(i) A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.

(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by the Rules of this part.

(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the Rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.


Of course RULE 9 needs a look in - Narrow Channels

Narrow channels.

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit or the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable. THE ROW BOAT WAS IN THE MIDDLE??

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. THE ROW BOAT IS LESS THAN 20M is NOT RESTRICTED TO THE CHANNEL

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel of fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34 (d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel. (You dont need to use this because your KNOW the intention Team talk by the boss)

IN MY OPINION

The overtaking rule does not apply here, it is that of RULE 8 and RULE 9.

Although the Sailing boat was under sail the row boat was underway but not waking way, having rowed before they are incredibly unstable and one poor stroke to get out of the way of the yacht could cause it to capsize (this includes 5 short blasts which may instigate this by setting Panic in the crew) which would then mean VESSEL NOT UNDER COMMAND and you would have to KEEP CLEAR. In which case do what you did and Tack away. (Rule 8 action to avoid a collision)

That was the Scenario so doing what you did was correct. As far as "stand on" "Give Way" I dont think it applies in this scenario as the average "yachtie" would view it.

If any of my guys were to stop in the middle of a channel I would put them on 18km row training for a month. They have to abide by the Rules of Rule 9 so they MUST keep clear of all vessels that can only safely navigate in the channel.

As it happens your actions alone avoided a collision good job!! http://www.ybw.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[prv]

Much of the channel stuff might be a bit of a red herring. Although there are shallow parts further upstream, the part of the river where we were is deep almost all the way across (not sure exactly what the contours are like around some of the slipways). The tide was fairly high too. So it wasn't the classic case of a narrow deep channel with broad mudflats to each side. I only draw 3 feet anyway

The rowers weren't keeping to starboard, but then with my tacking neither was I...

Pete

 

[fireball]

Quite agree with your take on narrow channel. So many on here state narrow channel as a get out but tbh, if you can swing your boat round 360 whilst underway without touching then it isn't really narrow is it?!

 

[Plomong]

I was taught that a rowing boat or any vessel propelled by oar or paddle is a power driven vessel -- human power, but power none the less.

What distinguishes sailing vessels from power driven vessels is that the former is at the mercy of the wind, whilst the latter is capable of self propulsion.

Apply corresponding ColRegs.

 

[Cruiser2B]

As you obviously had room to manoeuvre around them, it doesn't seem to have been an issue. Whether or not the row boat should be considered equivalent to a power-driven vessel or a sailing vessel (which has been pointed out, is implied in Colregs), the dinghy was power-driven. His responsibility is to not get in your way; you were tacking up a channel, so it was likely that they may have gotten in your way if they moved to port or starboard - the most sensible course of action is to remain stationary and allow you to pass either side as you see fit. It seems to me by moving in front of the rower, he was trying to give you room to pass (like 2 people walking abreast on a sidewalk going single-file to pass an oncoming pedestrian). Course I wasn't there - just my read of it.

 

[LittleSister]

A vessel under oars is NOT a power driven vessel, which is defined as 'any vessel propelled by machinery'. (Before anyone trots out the hoary old suggestion that an oar is a lever and some definitions of 'machine' include levers, and therefore (supposedly) oars are machinery, note that a sailing rig is a system of levers, too!)

There is no express provision for crossing situations involving vessels under oars. However, a vessel under oars has all the other obligations under the rules, such as lookout and avoiding collisions, and when overtaking (it does happen!, but obviously not the issue in the OP's scenario) has the same obligations as any other overtaking vessel.

A while ago I asked the RYA about vessels under oars and crossing situations and got the following reply from their legal dept. -

"In my view, the express inclusion of a reference to “a vessel under oars” in Rule 25 and the fact that this Rule applies different requirements for vessels under oars from those applied to power-driven vessels suggests that the expression “power-driven vessel” does not include a vessel under oars.

I acknowledge that the crossing rules you refer to do not expressly include reference to vessels under oars. I believe, however, that vessels under oars would nevertheless be covered by the requirement to keep a look-out, to use all available means to determine whether a risk of collisions exists and to take action to avoid a collision."

My own take on the OP's scenario (I'm assuming that there were not harbour regulations that overode the IRPCS in that location) the rowing boat is in the wrong (acting contrary to the IRPCS rules) by setting up a risk of collision by stopping in your path (probably too self-absorbed to notice) and probably of failing to keep an adequate look out, the 'safety' [sic] boat was in the wrong both by contravening the crossing rules power vs. sail, and by setting up another risk of collision (but obviously concentrating on 'protecting' the rowing boat), and the OP was in the right by tacking away to avoid a collision.

 

[ytd]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the 'real world' col regs. Real world col regs are based on the importance of what you are doing on the water. Under Real world col regs they are doing something important like training but you are just mucking about so you must give way to them. So fishing boats or water taxis or customs boats rarely give way to sailing boats since they are earning a living but a motor cruiser will because they are also just mucking about. The Real world col regs are even codified by the rule that sailing boats not racing must give way to those who are since racing is a more important activity than mucking about.

But rowing sculls and kayaks are like bicycles on the highway - it's risky to enforce the real world right of way, hence the need for the coach to remind you of their right of way.

 

[michael_w]

As far as the Port of London Authority are concerned, RoBos are a "power driven vessels".

 

[mihtjel]

Hmm, that 'real world' col regs talk doesn't hold in the real world - at least not over here, in Denmark There was an instance of a collision between a commercial vessel and a racing leisure boat in Denmark, involving some casualties. The lower courts at first decided to apply the same rules you mention, citing them from the sailing association's recommendations, but this decision was reversed by the higher courts, as they found that regardless of the vessel's purpose, the IRPCS must be observed.

It might be good seamanship for pleasure sailors to give way when possible, but it should be done within the framework of the IRPCS - if nothing else to avoid confusions, and incidents where both vessels give way, ending up on another, different collision course with each other.

 

[lw395]

I would think that a yacht tacking downstream along a river might be considered to be overtaking any boat moving downstream that it catches up with, regardless of whether its approaching tack is within the sternlight sector.

Colregs are a bit vague about when situations start, compared with RRS. In colregs, it seems to be assumed that both vessels have been on the same course for a long time.

There may also be local regs that apply.

 

[Plomong]

A vessel under oars is NOT a power driven vessel, which is defined as 'any vessel propelled by machinery'. (Before anyone trots out the hoary old suggestion that an oar is a lever and some definitions of 'machine' include levers, and therefore (supposedly) oars are machinery, note that a sailing rig is a system of levers, too!)

Absent a specific statement in the ColRegs, maybe the following reasoning would apply:

1) Two vessel types are defined in the ColRegs with reference to their means of propulsion, Sailing Vessels and Power-driven Vessels. There are no other definitions based on means of propulsion.

2) A vessel (replica galley, 14-man whaleboat, eight or kayak) propelled by oars is not a Sailing Vessel.

3) It is propelled by machinery (see OED for definition). So must be a Power-Driven Vessel.

Or I could be totally wrong -- any legal beaver out there seen any court deliberations on this matter ??? In UK or overseas ??

 

[john_morris_uk]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the 'real world' col regs. Real world col regs are based on the importance of what you are doing on the water. Under Real world col regs they are doing something important like training but you are just mucking about so you must give way to them. So fishing boats or water taxis or customs boats rarely give way to sailing boats since they are earning a living but a motor cruiser will because they are also just mucking about. The Real world col regs are even codified by the rule that sailing boats not racing must give way to those who are since racing is a more important activity than mucking about.

You are wrong on almost every count. The courts make no distinction between leisure and professional users of the sea. Apply the IRPCS is what we all have to do when we take a boat of any size or shape to sea. Obey the rules, avoid collisions and try not to confuse everyone else by making your own rules up might be a mantra for all part time sea-goers.

 

[Lakesailor]

I think ytd may have omitted the Irony Smiley.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I think ytd may have omitted the Irony Smiley.

If that is the case then:

The trouble is there are so many people who believe what he wrote...

 

[lw395]

If that is the case then:

The trouble is there are so many people who believe what he wrote...

And some of them drive ships....

 

[cliffordpope]

Is a sailing vessel's course and speed defined in the regulations by relation to the ground or the water?
For example, one could be making brisk progress downstream even though virtually becalmed by lack of wind, and hardly able to manoeuvre.