My new project... MFV Elizmor

[JumbleDuck]

The problem is that they usually undertake lifts through a marina, so the marina's insurance then covers the ground suitability. But the marina in this instance aren't insured for that value of crane, so that's why they proposed an unacceptably (IMO) high fee to cover their excess insurance.

Did the marina have their own crane when they lifted her out?

I understand they are a bit complicated, but any chance of a tandem lift? Cheaper cranes, smaller ground loadings.

Just remember that one day you'll look back on the distant past and say "Coo, do remember the trouble we had getting the old girl launched?" then pour another drink and watch as the tropical sun sinks behind the wheelhouse.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just a thought that's occured to me, it's worth sorting out a place nearby that can cheaply lift her in and out now - before she goes in - suppose an issue arrises after you've lifted her in and you need her out ASAP? You wouldn't want to be doing all this again, never mind the expense. Arrange it now and it would save a bit of a drama turning into a crisis later.

It occurred to me that a Plan B in case of a leak an hour or a day after the crane goes away would be a good thing. Even if it's just somewhere that she can be run aground and dried out. I presume, though, that there must be somewhere nearby which repairs commercial fishing vessels and which could handle Elizmor.

 

[jellyellie]

The marina has some control over the tidal locked-in basin she will be launched into, so we could dry her out exactly where she would be launched if necessary. For another lift, I could go round the corner to Fleetwood. £330 each way using their 75t hoist, ahhhhh, that's more like it.

 

[fisherman]

I have not read this thread right through but if an anchor is still being sought it might be worth having a look at Woods of Crediton.

http://www.woods-group.co.uk/chain.htm

A long way away I know but they appear to have hundreds of the things and should be used to shipping large items.

I thought that, apparently the website is out of date, see their ebay listings.

 

[fisherman]

The marina has some control over the tidal locked-in basin she will be launched into, so we could dry her out exactly where she would be launched if necessary. For another lift, I could go round the corner to Fleetwood. £330 each way using their 75t hoist, ahhhhh, that's more like it.

How wide is she? If you could get her by road to Fleetwood.....Crane would not need to be on the edge, and would not need to reach so far to get her on a low loader.

 

[jellyellie]

The problem isn't about the crane being on the edge or having to reach far. In fact there is no practical problem or worry; literally just paperwork. There is a big space that has been cleared next to Elizmor for the crane, and it's actually suggested that the outriggers do go right on the quayside (with big mats underneath) to put the weight downwards on the strongest part rather than surcharging against the quay edge from further away.

So unfortunately going by road won't help, as I still need a crane to lift her on to transport, by which time you might as well swing her 90degrees into the water.

 

[dom]

The marina has some control over the tidal locked-in basin she will be launched into, so we could dry her out exactly where she would be launched if necessary. For another lift, I could go round the corner to Fleetwood. £330 each way using their 75t hoist, ahhhhh, that's more like it.

Hi there,

Just noticed this thread - what a fantastic adventure! Some thoughts:

1. Quotes for a one off excess typically come in at 1/2 to 1x the annual cost of the excess cover in cases where an insurer assesses that the one-off activity (in this case your proposed lift) would only be made once or twice a year in the normal course of events. This is fair and there is not much you can do about it.

2. Insurers are particularly worried where an unprecedented risk is is being undertaken. This often causes a finger in the air additional premium being banged on. Don't assume that the yard know all this ...if a similar lift (ideally a heavier lift) was performed (was that big old shell lifted out beside your boat? )- then ask the yard to document that lift and send it to the insurers as background to their quotation.

3. I strongly agree with the above advice not to get into a legal; argy-bargy with the yard; lawyers are even more expensive than cranes!

4. You want to put the boat in the water ASAP and get going - such urgency is a charming and positive feature of young people with a "can-do/will-do-it-now" attitude. But whilst you're waiting you might use the opportunity to take a pen and pad and go around your boat to make an honest list of what needs doing and what you can do yourselves. If marketing is your profession - and you seem very good at it - you might conclude that earning the money professionally, then paying a boat professional to do some of the work is the best way forward.

Anyhow, hope it all works out and ....best of luck!!!

 

[Graham_Wright]

The marina has some control over the tidal locked-in basin she will be launched into, so we could dry her out exactly where she would be launched if necessary. For another lift, I could go round the corner to Fleetwood. £330 each way using their 75t hoist, ahhhhh, that's more like it.

Make sure she will fit - my son's boat (Pat C) was too wide.

 

[MYStargazer]

I am a lawyer, and used to work for an insurance underwriters in the City.

Some of the saloon-bar legal opinions voiced on here are absurd and should be ignored.

Carrots are always more effective than sticks, so don't even think about legal options as this stage. To an extent, the yard has you over a barrel.

'Insurers' can mean either brokers or underwriters. Underwriters carry the risk. It's the underwriter(s) you need to contact, charm and convince. It sounds like you've identified the sticking point. Now politely but insistently work your magic with them. The risk will almost certainly end up on the Lloyd's (http://www.lloyds.com/) market. At a desk somewhere is the pinstriped suit you need to convince. He or she, in all likelihood, is a very reasonable and affable person, and would love to help - if only they knew.

 

[Old Rhodie]

I, too am late to this thread.
What concerned me on the first page was the obvious drive to get started on the trip down half the West Coast of Britain to the South coast.
Evidence, both anecdotal and statistical, shows that the most dangerous trip is that first delivery tip to one's home port in a newly acquired vessel.
And in Winter. And a boat that hasn't moved for 10 years. And with a skipper with no experience of the boat. etc.
Surely - use it for a month or two locally first. Get some experience of how its systems work - or don't. Find its weak points and sort them out. Then go for it.
I still hope you get it launched.
Ken

 

[jellyellie]

I, too am late to this thread.
What concerned me on the first page was the obvious drive to get started on the trip down half the West Coast of Britain to the South coast.
Evidence, both anecdotal and statistical, shows that the most dangerous trip is that first delivery tip to one's home port in a newly acquired vessel.
And in Winter. And a boat that hasn't moved for 10 years. And with a skipper with no experience of the boat. etc.
Surely - use it for a month or two locally first. Get some experience of how its systems work - or don't. Find its weak points and sort them out. Then go for it.
I still hope you get it launched.
Ken

Hi Old Rhodie, thanks for your concern but don't worry, I am not intending to do anything foolish.

I had a (very good) survey commissioned before I bought the boat which has given me two comprehensive lists to work from - one detailing things which need doing before Elizmor is launched, and the second detailing things which need doing before we go to sea. Furthermore, when Elizmor is launched, I will be going on the surveyor's recommendations of staying in Preston Marina for four weeks so she can take up moisture and we can test her engine and steering etc. under load in the considerably sized basin here.

I spent four weeks working full-time on the boat with my dad (experienced with electrics & engines) and boyfriend (a carpenter with his own wooden boat) when I bought the boat, to get her ready to launch. The three of us got to know Elizmor inside out and have renewed a lot of her systems, and my insurers are happy that I have comprehensively covered the surveyor's first list, as well as adding our own items to the list which we discovered as we worked through the boat.

The next step is to launch Elizmor so the clock can start ticking on the four weeks of sitting in Preston Marina. During that time we will undertake the second half of the surveyor's recommendations and do the local sea trials etc.

I have 7 years' experience sailing a variety vessels, including 100ft wooden sail training ships etc., and five years' experience living & sailing on my own previous boat. Just because I'm young and eager, doesn't make me impatient and foolhardy.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I
Surely - use it for a month or two locally first. Get some experience of how its systems work - or don't. Find its weak points and sort them out. Then go for it.
I still hope you get it launched.
Ken

You still need to get boat and water in conjunction to do that. And, short of a biblical flood, a crane appears to be essential.

I believe somewhere in the thread JE refers to local commissioning cruises.

 

[Preston Marina]

This thread is attracting quite a bit of interest, but also quite a bit of speculation. Ellie has given some of the facts surrounding the plans to launch Elizmor, but many folk have filled in the blanks themselves, perhaps producing a distorted picture.

We had hoped to maintain a “dignified silence” on this subject preferring to work directly with our customers, however this forum has raised so many issues in the public domain, and our Company’s reputation is being brought into question, that we felt we had to summarise our view. We are aware that this post may prompt many comments and opinions however we do not propose to enter into a tit-for-tat discussion on what is after all a private commercial venture.

We should like to state that our Company’s basic position is that we are more than able to launch “Elizmor” and always have been. However, it’s a more complex project than it might at first appear and Ellie is not the first person to have bought a boat without realising and researching the costs to launch. Now, as owner, she is in a great hurry to launch and has limited funds – 2 factors which are understandable, but do not work well together – especially with a large old wooden boat that has been ashore for a long time.

It's quite a complex story though, so we won't address all the previous points, but there are some key questions (paraphrased here) which keep coming up and so we'll start there.

“Who lifted Elizmor out?”

We did, in about 1996, when you could still smoke in pubs and climb a ladder without a safety net – and, most significantly, before the LOLER and PUWER lifting regulations, with its associated paperwork, were introduced in 1998. We advised the owner at the time that Elizmor was larger than we were set up to deal with (we still have the letter we sent him in 1992) but they were quite insistent and we reluctantly agreed, as at that time there were no obvious alternative boatyards in this area better equipped to lift her. She arrived by water in late 1992, and we could have had no idea she'd still be here over 20 years later.

“Why can't you just do the same thing backwards to launch?”

We can, the practical aspects of the lift are quite straightforward, we know exactly how to do it, we have done it before, and countless other heavy or awkward loads over many decades.

The problems are not to do with the practicalities, but are to do with the costs and liabilities involved, which since the new regulations have meant the cost to lift Elizmor back in the water will be significantly higher than when we lifted her out, and higher than we would wish to charge a private client for.

Discussions with previous owners of Elizmor on this subject had created some difficulties and that's why, when Ellie introduced herself to us as Elizmor's new owner we suggested she try to secure a contract lift independently. That way there would be total transparency and she could have greater control of costs.


“So why did you get involved?”

Ellie had booked a 200t crane to be on site on Tues 7th January 2014 – the day following the crane company’s return to work after the Christmas break. Tuesday was identified so that if the weather forecast on Monday was bad then the crane could be cancelled without cost, the weather on Monday 6th was atrocious and the forecast was also bad and therefore the lift was postponed.

Ellie had been struggling to get Hired In Plant insurance to cover the 200t crane, and also she couldn't accept liability for ground loading which was a requirement of the crane company, and indeed our own due-diligence. Our sister company and lifting partner, Chris Miller Preston Ltd, offered to try to help, by considering some of these liabilities. This consideration meant that CMPL had to discuss the project with their insurance and preferably the crane company and their insurers. Unfortunately all of those organisations were either closed or operating with skeleton staff over this Christmas holiday, all were due back at work properly on 6th January – the day before Ellie had booked the lift.

In the absence of the crane company’s input CMPL were only able to discuss the project with their own insurers who during the Christmas week gave an indication of price which was only firmed up as a quotation of the afternoon of Monday 6th. CMPL were under pressure to provide a firm price for this lift without delay and the only figure available at that moment was a figure which CMPL felt could possibly be adjusted given time and by negotiation, but they had no option but to put forward these figures as they were at that snapshot in time, but advised Ellie to wait to see if better arrangements could be made. At this point Ellie advised that she would seek external help to launch Elizmor and would let us know of any developments.

“What's wrong with the ground?”

In short, nothing at all. Preston was a commercial port and is no stranger to heavy lifts, including the recent landing of 2 transformers each weighing around 170 tonnes.

These were lifted by a company who sent qualified ground surveyors out beforehand. The loadings were calculated and the crane worked within them. The surveyors were paid by the client and the report resulted in the company providing an indemnity to the marina for any damage and for that lift.

As stated earlier, CMPL would have been prepared to consider these liabilities based on their proposed lifting method and their own historic knowledge of the ground and previous lifts.

“So why can't you use that information?”

For the same reason that, although your MOT cert says your car was OK at the time of testing, the guy that tested it doesn't have to vouch for its condition for the following year. The same guys would probably come and re-test the ground specifically for Elizmor, but their bill will have to be paid of course.

“Surely the people in charge at the marina must be work shy jobsworths who don't know what they're doing.”

The Managing Director and man responsible for lifting at Preston Marina is Chris Miller, along with a very experienced team. Chris has over 50 years of personal experience lifting boats. 40 years ago he built a slipway on which to lift and launch a concrete boat significantly heavier than Elizmor. He transported and handled the 150 tonne main valves for Dinorwic hydro electric power station. Last year he designed and built a custom cradle to lift 27 tonne WWII HSL launch which was so fragile it couldn't hold it's own weight. And many boat owners have happily trusted him to lift their pride and joy from some very weird places. Whilst Chris doesn't claim to know it all, he isn't scared to get his hands dirty and seldom needs a clipboard to get the job done.

Those interested can take a look at few photos of some examples of jobs like this at this link; CLICK HERE


“It must be a cynical ploy to keep Elizmor on the hard?”

Well, no. Actually as boat lovers ourselves we genuinely hope Ellie gets a satisfactory lifting offer she feels she can accept, and Elizmor is launched into her new life. To date we have waived the transfer fees, and berthing fees which our terms allow us (and many other marinas) to charge. We've offered to help where we can, done test rigging, cleared a working space for a crane and supplied services and advice and stand ready to help with the special arrangements post launch that an old, large wooden boat that has been ashore for many years is likely to need, and we have yet to receive a penny. We have also made an offer of some free stock from our chandlery as our small Company’s contribution to her project. The value of this input exceeds that of the apparent cost of a sponsorship package, yet we do not ask for publicity. We certainly didn't expect the kind we've been treated to in the court of public opinion.

So that's it. Believe us when we say this is the short version. It is our sincere wish to see Ellie and Elizmor happily on their way, which we are sure will be possible somehow and we remain available and willing to assist in any way that we reasonably can.

 

[DuncanR]

I am a lawyer, and used to work for an insurance underwriters in the City.

Some of the saloon-bar legal opinions voiced on here are absurd and should be ignored.

Carrots are always more effective than sticks, so don't even think about legal options as this stage. To an extent, the yard has you over a barrel.

'Insurers' can mean either brokers or underwriters. Underwriters carry the risk. It's the underwriter(s) you need to contact, charm and convince. It sounds like you've identified the sticking point. Now politely but insistently work your magic with them. The risk will almost certainly end up on the Lloyd's (http://www.lloyds.com/) market. At a desk somewhere is the pinstriped suit you need to convince. He or she, in all likelihood, is a very reasonable and affable person, and would love to help - if only they knew.

Good post, and I'm sure EJ will see through those comments. Without doubt, in a bygone era Elizmor would already be in the water ..and no one will have died, and half of Preston Marina will not have slid into the water... and EJ will not be penniless .. however...Heavy Lifting isn't that simple today, as a few experienced hands on here know. Its not the mechanics of the lifting operation that cause the problems, albeit they do sometimes, its the paperwork as alluded to in previous posts. IF the lift were to go ahead in some dodgy brown envelope fashion, (and EJ , I know that isn't going to happen with you ) and the boat was landed safely upon the water, those gathered around would be all "there you go ! ..no problemo ..what was all the fuss about ?" ... IF however things went a little wrong ... those people wouldn't be found, and they certainly wouldn't be much back slapping going on. Heavier lifts have been carried out on a similar stretch of the same quay wall, albeit with very large steel spreader mats, and some structural calculations were carried out. The owners of the Marina Preston City Council say they do not have any figures to pass on to anyone contemplating their own lifts. Under current LOLER regulations, and to satisfy Insurers, and more importantly Underwriters, some kind of ground loading figure needs to be found, or applied in a satisfactory manner and in writing .. i.e. someone has to put their name to it .. and theres the rub.. whilst some leaning at the bar may say " I will do that..no bother " are they qualified to?

 

[ribdriver]

I won't go into too much detail but I have fairly extensive knowledge of doing exactly this with hired in plant.

Any crane company worth their salt should be able to offer you a contract lift - their responsibility, complete with additional insurance to cover such eventualities. This is typically 15% extra of the lift price.

If they can't, an additional premium on the marina's insurance should not be that exorbitant.....although slightly more than the crane hire additional premium. Even to cover the full replacement cost of the machine.

Yes, that is correct.

The marina lifted her out themselves around ten years ago, they don't have any paperwork about it.

I just spoke to the crane company who are involved in all of this.

The problem is that they usually undertake lifts through a marina, so the marina's insurance then covers the ground suitability. But the marina in this instance aren't insured for that value of crane, so that's why they proposed an unacceptably (IMO) high fee to cover their excess insurance.

If I want to do it as a contract hire, somebody other than the crane company has to certify the ground suitability. There are two pieces of evidence the crane company are going to send to their insurers to see if they can insure against this themselves.

I wonder if your suggestion of getting the marina to undertake it as a contract hire would indeed work as it means that their insurance covers the ground suitability and then the crane company's insurance covers the value of the crane. I don't know. Maybe the two insurances aren't split like that.

I still can't believe, even for over £4,500, I can't just put my money on the table and get either the marina or the crane company to sort this out without me having to constantly going back and forth between them.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

OK, a few facts:

- The previous owners showed me a letter from the yard/marina with a quote for around £5,000 to launch her. The marina themselves referenced this when I spoke to them about the launch. There was every indication the launch could be done for around this figure, but the previous owners couldn't afford to pay this much (along with other personal reasons for selling)
- The previous owners paid up until April 2014 so I'm hopeful of being able to launch before then, set off and not incur any extra fees
- The suggestion of using Chris Miller... the photo of a previous launch looks great (in fact you can see Elizmor's canoe stern poking out just along the edge of the quay) but they are in fact the owners of the yard/marina and the ones who haven't been able to arrange the lift for a reasonable fee so far

And now some REALLY GOOD NEWS...

Elizmor has been accepted onto the National Register of Historic Vessel of the United Kingdom!

http://elizmor.co.uk/blog/look-what-came-in-the-post/

That's REALLY GREAT NEWS!

 

[onesea]

IMHO (and as a former constructor engineer and crane operator,this sounds like a scam to pump up the fee.)

Elley it does sound like you have fallen foul of the paper chasers, the guy who suggested speaking to the underwriter has a point. What ever level your dealing with now seems no to be able to make a decision can you go above them?

Have you considered the cost of getting a soil analysis/ site survey done? I think to cover it you would have to pay the marina for getting it done so its for them and there insurance? DO not get disheartened
.

I JUST WANT TO LAUNCH MY BOAT.

Keep smiling, look on the bright side at least the weather for the last month has not been the weather to bring her home in! You could be holed up in some southern marina being charged super yacht berthing charges and gales all round...

Delay the passage south till the summer keep this publicity up you will not need your own life raft. You will have a flotilla of support craft following

 

[Blueboatman]

Well I have read all that and, elegance aside, there is still a solid old boat sitting on proven ground with neighbourly cranage, 'can do' management with good lifting experience, there IS a paper trail, there's money in the bank...

Jellie. To put it bluntly: Why not perhaps consider NOW giving Robert Holbrook a call at Admiral?
He is a true sailor, dynamic and smart and v savvy. ( And I like my dealings with them for my marine insurance). He is the bloke who backed the YBW ' Boat Catastrophe' project . If anyone can join up the dots to get the existing proven facts into a cohesive underwriting document for you... ? Always get the best advice, from the top if you can, IME. One good phone call 'n all that.

 

[Otter]

Thanks to Preston Marina for taking the time to provide the reply. they were getting some bad press on here but provided a thoughtful and professional reply to it.

 

[Greenheart]

The passage written by the folk at Preston Marina seems so agreeable and honest and thoroughly capable, I've completely forgotten what the problem is here.

Isn't it simply the unfortunate fact that (whether through changes in safety law or other core factors affecting a vessel's perceived fitness for use) anyone buying a rather large, rather old boat, needs a huge wad of money on the side to cope with inevitable but unforeseeable costs arising?