My new project... MFV Elizmor

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dancrane said:
The passage written by the folk at Preston Marina seems so agreeable and honest and capable, I've completely forgotten what the problem is here.

Isn't it simply the unfortunate fact that (whether through changes in safety law or other core factors affecting a vessel's perceived fitness for use) anyone buying a rather large, rather old boat, needs a huge wad of money on the side to cope with inevitable but unforeseeable costs arising?
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I have to agree with you Dancrane, and fair play to Preston Marina for giving their side of the story which seems reasonable given the health and safety gestapo who now govern everything.
 
Preston Marina said:
So that's it. Believe us when we say this is the short version. It is our sincere wish to see Ellie and Elizmor happily on their way, which we are sure will be possible somehow and we remain available and willing to assist in any way that we reasonably can.
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Congratulations Preston Marina on a very responsible and sympathetic response.
 
Graham_Wright said:
Congratulations Preston Marina on a very responsible and sympathetic response.
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I agree.

This appears to be the most relevant paragraph in relation to the whole saga............' Now, as owner, she is in a great hurry to launch and has limited funds – 2 factors which are understandable, but do not work well together – especially with a large old wooden boat that has been ashore for a long time.'
 
Melleman said:
Then help here............You are not doing that now.
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Is that fair comment? Are you suggesting that the marina management should ignore legal requirements, to hurry the process by which a safe re-launching may be accomplished?

No argument, the habit of health & safety directives to cover all conceivable risks (and sometimes introducing virtually unworkable complexity) is a royal pain in the parts, but as a business the marina would be very unwise to ignore the rules, however irritating that may be...particularly now that so many people know about it! Surely, not the marina's fault.
 
Good reply, there are always two sides to every situation.



Preston Marina said:
This thread is attracting quite a bit of interest, but also quite a bit of speculation. Ellie has given some of the facts surrounding the plans to launch Elizmor, but many folk have filled in the blanks themselves, perhaps producing a distorted picture.

We had hoped to maintain a “dignified silence” on this subject preferring to work directly with our customers, however this forum has raised so many issues in the public domain, and our Company’s reputation is being brought into question, that we felt we had to summarise our view. We are aware that this post may prompt many comments and opinions however we do not propose to enter into a tit-for-tat discussion on what is after all a private commercial venture.

We should like to state that our Company’s basic position is that we are more than able to launch “Elizmor” and always have been. However, it’s a more complex project than it might at first appear and Ellie is not the first person to have bought a boat without realising and researching the costs to launch. Now, as owner, she is in a great hurry to launch and has limited funds – 2 factors which are understandable, but do not work well together – especially with a large old wooden boat that has been ashore for a long time.

It's quite a complex story though, so we won't address all the previous points, but there are some key questions (paraphrased here) which keep coming up and so we'll start there.

“Who lifted Elizmor out?”

We did, in about 1996, when you could still smoke in pubs and climb a ladder without a safety net – and, most significantly, before the LOLER and PUWER lifting regulations, with its associated paperwork, were introduced in 1998. We advised the owner at the time that Elizmor was larger than we were set up to deal with (we still have the letter we sent him in 1992) but they were quite insistent and we reluctantly agreed, as at that time there were no obvious alternative boatyards in this area better equipped to lift her. She arrived by water in late 1992, and we could have had no idea she'd still be here over 20 years later.

“Why can't you just do the same thing backwards to launch?”

We can, the practical aspects of the lift are quite straightforward, we know exactly how to do it, we have done it before, and countless other heavy or awkward loads over many decades.

The problems are not to do with the practicalities, but are to do with the costs and liabilities involved, which since the new regulations have meant the cost to lift Elizmor back in the water will be significantly higher than when we lifted her out, and higher than we would wish to charge a private client for.

Discussions with previous owners of Elizmor on this subject had created some difficulties and that's why, when Ellie introduced herself to us as Elizmor's new owner we suggested she try to secure a contract lift independently. That way there would be total transparency and she could have greater control of costs.


“So why did you get involved?”

Ellie had booked a 200t crane to be on site on Tues 7th January 2014 – the day following the crane company’s return to work after the Christmas break. Tuesday was identified so that if the weather forecast on Monday was bad then the crane could be cancelled without cost, the weather on Monday 6th was atrocious and the forecast was also bad and therefore the lift was postponed.

Ellie had been struggling to get Hired In Plant insurance to cover the 200t crane, and also she couldn't accept liability for ground loading which was a requirement of the crane company, and indeed our own due-diligence. Our sister company and lifting partner, Chris Miller Preston Ltd, offered to try to help, by considering some of these liabilities. This consideration meant that CMPL had to discuss the project with their insurance and preferably the crane company and their insurers. Unfortunately all of those organisations were either closed or operating with skeleton staff over this Christmas holiday, all were due back at work properly on 6th January – the day before Ellie had booked the lift.

In the absence of the crane company’s input CMPL were only able to discuss the project with their own insurers who during the Christmas week gave an indication of price which was only firmed up as a quotation of the afternoon of Monday 6th. CMPL were under pressure to provide a firm price for this lift without delay and the only figure available at that moment was a figure which CMPL felt could possibly be adjusted given time and by negotiation, but they had no option but to put forward these figures as they were at that snapshot in time, but advised Ellie to wait to see if better arrangements could be made. At this point Ellie advised that she would seek external help to launch Elizmor and would let us know of any developments.

“What's wrong with the ground?”

In short, nothing at all. Preston was a commercial port and is no stranger to heavy lifts, including the recent landing of 2 transformers each weighing around 170 tonnes.

These were lifted by a company who sent qualified ground surveyors out beforehand. The loadings were calculated and the crane worked within them. The surveyors were paid by the client and the report resulted in the company providing an indemnity to the marina for any damage and for that lift.

As stated earlier, CMPL would have been prepared to consider these liabilities based on their proposed lifting method and their own historic knowledge of the ground and previous lifts.

“So why can't you use that information?”

For the same reason that, although your MOT cert says your car was OK at the time of testing, the guy that tested it doesn't have to vouch for its condition for the following year. The same guys would probably come and re-test the ground specifically for Elizmor, but their bill will have to be paid of course.

“Surely the people in charge at the marina must be work shy jobsworths who don't know what they're doing.”

The Managing Director and man responsible for lifting at Preston Marina is Chris Miller, along with a very experienced team. Chris has over 50 years of personal experience lifting boats. 40 years ago he built a slipway on which to lift and launch a concrete boat significantly heavier than Elizmor. He transported and handled the 150 tonne main valves for Dinorwic hydro electric power station. Last year he designed and built a custom cradle to lift 27 tonne WWII HSL launch which was so fragile it couldn't hold it's own weight. And many boat owners have happily trusted him to lift their pride and joy from some very weird places. Whilst Chris doesn't claim to know it all, he isn't scared to get his hands dirty and seldom needs a clipboard to get the job done.

Those interested can take a look at few photos of some examples of jobs like this at this link; CLICK HERE


“It must be a cynical ploy to keep Elizmor on the hard?”

Well, no. Actually as boat lovers ourselves we genuinely hope Ellie gets a satisfactory lifting offer she feels she can accept, and Elizmor is launched into her new life. To date we have waived the transfer fees, and berthing fees which our terms allow us (and many other marinas) to charge. We've offered to help where we can, done test rigging, cleared a working space for a crane and supplied services and advice and stand ready to help with the special arrangements post launch that an old, large wooden boat that has been ashore for many years is likely to need, and we have yet to receive a penny. We have also made an offer of some free stock from our chandlery as our small Company’s contribution to her project. The value of this input exceeds that of the apparent cost of a sponsorship package, yet we do not ask for publicity. We certainly didn't expect the kind we've been treated to in the court of public opinion.

So that's it. Believe us when we say this is the short version. It is our sincere wish to see Ellie and Elizmor happily on their way, which we are sure will be possible somehow and we remain available and willing to assist in any way that we reasonably can.
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dancrane said:
Is that fair comment? Are you suggesting that the marina management should ignore legal requirements, to hurry the process by which a safe re-launching may be accomplished?

No argument, the habit of health & safety directives to cover all conceivable risks (and sometimes introducing virtually unworkable complexity) is a royal pain in the parts, but as a business the marina would be very unwise to ignore the rules, however irritating that may be...particularly now that so many people know about it! Surely, not the marina's fault.
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Absolutely not the marina's fault. I too think that Melleman's comment is misjudged. Credit to Preston Marina for posting.

Unfortunately for Ellie it does just seem like the rules have changed over the passing of time, and the consequence is just that the lift is going to cost what it costs, regardless of whether or not she thinks that cost is reasonable.
 
Melleman said:
Adjust the price for the lift.
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I'm missing something here. Why should Preston Marina subsidise the cost of lifting a customers boat back into the water? It isn't the marina's fault that legislation means that the costs have increased. Whilst I agree that it's a bit frustrating that the law means that the cost of the lift is high, at the end of the day that's just a cost associated with the ownership of a big boat.
 
Exactly. From what perspective can it be seen as a marina's obligation to reimburse a boat-owner, re. costs which a change in the law has generated since the boat was last lifted?
 
From what I can see, the marina have already waived some fees as a sign of goodwill. At the end of the day they're a commercial business, not some charitable organisation dedicated to saving old boats. It's the old story, I'm afraid...the bigger the boat, the bigger the bills.
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
I'm missing something here. Why should Preston Marina subsidise the cost of lifting a customers boat back into the water?
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You are not missing anything.
dancrane said:
Exactly. From what perspective can it be seen as a marina's obligation to reimburse a boat-owner, re. costs which a change in the law has generated since the boat was last lifted?
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You are of course right.



But in the same time,if they really want to they can probably lower the price.
 
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Melleman said:
...if they really want to they can probably lower the price.
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Hmm. Perhaps I should apply to my sailing club to waive a percentage of my 2014 fees? You know, so I can afford a new trolley for easier launching? :rolleyes:

I bought the boat, so I have to assume responsibility to cover all associated costs. I wish it was different!
 
Oh dear seems as if JE should have done some homework before purchase .looks as if a hefty 6k is the price for having a little "ship " launched ......... And it won't stop there unfortunately .
 
+1 Well played Preston Marina for their response.

It seems that there was a rush to get an insurance quote over the Christmas period. Insurance is an old-school sector. It is gentlemanly, relaxed and convivial. There will have been too many unknowns, and knowledge gaps have led to a high premium quotation, especially if more junior staff were involved - covering the desks of senior colleagues who are often entitled to a lot more leave.

There's now time in hand to arrange realistically priced insurance. The other sponsors have invested wisely. Ignore the comments implying freeloading from those who do not live in the 21st commercial environment. Any broker or underwriter with any commercial common sense should see the benefits of being conspicuously helpful.

Follow the trail of contacts from Preston Marina and/or the lifting company to their insurance brokers, their wholesale brokers (if any), and on to the specific underwriters. Find out who they are and contact them directly, in person. Your persistence will pay off.
 
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