My new project... MFV Elizmor

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ean_p said:
http://hsl2552.co.uk/transport/tn_DSC_9915.JPG
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If you knock the "tn_" off the beginning of that you get a nice big picture:

DSC_9915.JPG


I confess that I am having some difficulty understanding why there is problem here. Does one not simple go to the marina manager and say "I would like my boat lifted in, please" at which point the manager either arranges for their own crane to do it or rings up their usual contractor to hire one in? Expecting the poor boat owner to find cranes, arrange insurance, carry out ground surveys and so on seems most peculiar.
 
chewi said:
They were also the guys that crushed the beam of one of HMS Victorys longboats by lifting it without spreaders (on camera and broadcast in a publicity shoot on Quest TV).
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I saw that!

I actually muttered out loud "sure you don't want a spreader on that?" just before it went crunch.

Pete
 
JumbleDuck said:
If you knock the "tn_" off the beginning of that you get a nice big picture:

DSC_9915.JPG


I confess that I am having some difficulty understanding why there is problem here. Does one not simple go to the marina manager and say "I would like my boat lifted in, please" at which point the manager either arranges for their own crane to do it or rings up their usual contractor to hire one in? Expecting the poor boat owner to find cranes, arrange insurance, carry out ground surveys and so on seems most peculiar.
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+1 Surly it's a case of you lifted it out so you lift it back in ?? just tell them to get on with it or ask the marina how the boat was lifted out and then let them explain what's changed .O r have I missed summin ?
If it were me I'd just walk into the office say I'd like my boat craned into to the water ASAP and walk out and not to enter into any further discussions let them do the worrying .
 
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I did post earlier, be very careful with cranes and liability, and #223 is apposite. A FV owner watched his boat go over the edge of St Ives quay, landing on the railings on the way, crane stood on end, and later found he was liable. We ordered a lift from the boatyard crane at Gweek many years ago when it was a very small and amateur operation, they wanted us to sign a disclaimer first. I think it's a pay money take choice situation.

I suppose theoretically one could argue under SOG 1979 that the Marina is not fit for purpose if a boat already in it cannot be launched.
 
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clyst said:
If it were me I'd just walk into the office say I'd like my boat craned into to the water ASAP and walk out and not to enter into any further discussions let them do the worrying .
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At the same time intimidating that there is no money for further storage fees? Wonder how the yard's finances are?
 
I agree, it's not all "elf and safety gorn mad" - 10 years ago the inspection and licensing regime will have been very different and it's changed for the better. FIL inspects cranes for insurers and there are some horror stories, one busy yacht club near here had been using a dangerous crane until annual, rather than installation only, inspections were brought in. It could have toppled at any time crushing boat owners and families walking past.

It does sound like it may be a big bill but as some expert replies have said it IS doable. How's the Historic Ships application going? That may add some leverage in terms of good publicity.

fisherman said:
At the same time intimidating that there is no money for further storage fees? Wonder how the yard's finances are?
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I'd counsel against this. They've had it on shore for 10 years so there's no duty owed to launch it and it's not like you can drive it away and not pay! In stories I've heard, yards have no patience for suggestions like this and all the law is on their side when it comes to applying a lien.
 
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Lazy Kipper said:
I'd counsel against this. They've had it on shore for 10 years so there's no duty owed to launch it and it's not like you can drive it away and not pay! In stories I've heard, yards have no patience for suggestions like this and all the law is on their side when it comes to applying a lien.
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Yes, it was a bit tongue in cheek, and, as my granny used to say 'you don't catch flies with vinegar'.
 
Lazy Kipper said:
I agree, it's not all "elf and safety gorn mad" - 10 years ago the inspection and licensing regime will have been very different and it's changed for the better. FIL inspects cranes for insurers and there are some horror stories, one busy yacht club near here had been using a dangerous crane until annual, rather than installation only, inspections were brought in. It could have toppled at any time crushing boat owners and families walking past.

It does sound like it may be a big bill but as some expert replies have said it IS doable. How's the Historic Ships application going? That may add some leverage in terms of good publicity.



I'd counsel against this. They've had it on shore for 10 years so there's no duty owed to launch it and it's not like you can drive it away and not pay! In stories I've heard, yards have no patience for suggestions like this and all the law is on their side when it comes to applying a lien.
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It seems unreasonable to rack up JE 's storage charges ŵhen the marina has no facility to relaunch . Seems a cash cow for the marina .
 
clyst said:
It seems unreasonable to rack up JE 's storage charges ŵhen the marina has no facility to relaunch . Seems a cash cow for the marina .
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Perhaps the previous owner should have been a bit more upfront about the problems likely to be encountered in refloating the boat, after all whenever they bought it they were hardly intending to leave it high and dry permanently.
 
clyst said:
It seems unreasonable to rack up JE 's storage charges ŵhen the marina has no facility to relaunch . Seems a cash cow for the marina .
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JE bought a boat that had been ashore for 10 years and was being sold by owners who'd not been able to afford to launch it. The historic ship's register may help a bit?
 
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OK, a few facts:

- The previous owners showed me a letter from the yard/marina with a quote for around £5,000 to launch her. The marina themselves referenced this when I spoke to them about the launch. There was every indication the launch could be done for around this figure, but the previous owners couldn't afford to pay this much (along with other personal reasons for selling)
- The previous owners paid up until April 2014 so I'm hopeful of being able to launch before then, set off and not incur any extra fees
- The suggestion of using Chris Miller... the photo of a previous launch looks great (in fact you can see Elizmor's canoe stern poking out just along the edge of the quay) but they are in fact the owners of the yard/marina and the ones who haven't been able to arrange the lift for a reasonable fee so far

And now some REALLY GOOD NEWS...

Elizmor has been accepted onto the National Register of Historic Vessel of the United Kingdom!

http://elizmor.co.uk/blog/look-what-came-in-the-post/
 
- The suggestion of using Chris Miller... the photo of a previous launch looks great (in fact you can see Elizmor's canoe stern poking out just along the edge of the quay) but they are in fact the owners of the yard/marina and the ones who haven't been able to arrange the lift for a reasonable fee so far

Oh.....sounds expensive then!!!!!!!!
 
jellyellie said:
- The previous owners showed me a letter from the yard/marina with a quote for around £5,000 to launch her.
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It all sounds most frustrating and I can't say that I am very impressed with the marina's approach. Have I got this right ...

You arranged a contract hire (ie you paid a company to lift her) but it couldn't go ahead because you couldn't give the crane company guarantees about the ground conditions, it not being your marina.

The marina then arranged to hire a crane and do the lift themselves but that fell through because the crane was worth more than their insurance would cover if something went wrong and they wanted to charge you an exorbitant amount to increase their cover.​

Why can't the marina arrange a contract hire, so that they give the necessary information about the ground and the crane company (I presume) provide the insurance? Do you or they have any records of who lifted her out originally?
 
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With respect to you Ellie (and only said in good humour)...

...perhaps ALL wooden boat owners ought to be expecting a letter from the hospital with an appointment to see a specialist? :encouragement:
 
JumbleDuck said:
It all sound most frustrating and I can't say that I am very impressed with the marina's approach. Have I got this right ...
You arranged a contract hire (ie you paid a company to lift her) but it couldn't go ahead because you couldn't give the crane company guarantees about the ground conditions, it not being your marina.

The marina then arranged to hire a crane and do the lift themselves but that fell through because the crane was worth more than their insurance would cover if something went wrong and they wanted to charge you an exorbitant amount to increase their cover.​

Why can't the marina arrange a contract hire, so that they give the necessary information about the ground and the crane company (I presume) provide the insurance? Do you or they have any records of who lifted her out originally?
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Yes, that is correct.

The marina lifted her out themselves around ten years ago, they don't have any paperwork about it.

I just spoke to the crane company who are involved in all of this.

The problem is that they usually undertake lifts through a marina, so the marina's insurance then covers the ground suitability. But the marina in this instance aren't insured for that value of crane, so that's why they proposed an unacceptably (IMO) high fee to cover their excess insurance.

If I want to do it as a contract hire, somebody other than the crane company has to certify the ground suitability. There are two pieces of evidence the crane company are going to send to their insurers to see if they can insure against this themselves.

I wonder if your suggestion of getting the marina to undertake it as a contract hire would indeed work as it means that their insurance covers the ground suitability and then the crane company's insurance covers the value of the crane. I don't know. Maybe the two insurances aren't split like that.

I still can't believe, even for over £4,500, I can't just put my money on the table and get either the marina or the crane company to sort this out without me having to constantly going back and forth between them.
 
Just a thought that's occured to me, it's worth sorting out a place nearby that can cheaply lift her in and out now - before she goes in - suppose an issue arrises after you've lifted her in and you need her out ASAP? You wouldn't want to be doing all this again, never mind the expense. Arrange it now and it would save a bit of a drama turning into a crisis later.
 
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