My Liveaboard plans, (long term plan)

blampied

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Jersey Channel Islands
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Hi Live-aboard formits

Maybe I'm planning too far in advance, but maybe not?

<span style="color:red"> </span> The Plan <span style="color:red"> </span>
We have a plan to retire at 60, (11 years time) earlier if poss. but will probably be 1½ years later.
Take up a live aboard lifestyle & retire away from Jersey, (Jersey cost of living is excessive).
Always had & loved boats, (In Jersey it’s hard not to) but never owned anything bigger than 27 foot.
My biggest asset is SWMBO also loves boats & is just as keen if not more so, to sell up & live on one
Plan’s been forming for 5 years, but commitments (kids) & lack of funds we need to wait until retirement.
Buy a boat big enough to live on (motor not sail), with very low air draft & must also be sea going.
From Jersey the closest French water way ‘The Rance’ has a ridiculously low air draft of 2.5m,
We intend to purchase the boat several years before retirement & as we always intend to keep some contact with Jersey a boat that’s sea going, single engine & can also use the Rance, is what’s required.

<span style="color:blue"> </span> Funding <span style="color:blue"> </span>
Our very small 2 bed house will be the funding. We will sell a few years before retirement.
Use half the house value to purchase a boat. (Insufficient for new, but will be enough for second hand)
Not wanting to cut our ties completely with Jersey we decided we need to keep a small flat, as a foot hold on the property ladder as a way back if things go wrong or when we simply got too old to live on a boat.

<span style="color:blue"> </span> Putting the plan into action <span style="color:blue"> </span>
6 months ago at the top of the property boom we put the plan into action
Bought a very small 1 bed flat (I’m sure the boat will be bigger than the flat)
But on plus side got one of the last 15 year cheap trackers, & the interest rate’s been falling ever since.
Found me a tenant (Exciting, first time being a landlord) hopefully tenant will help pay the mortgage.
Now desperately trying to pay it off in 12 rather than 15 years.
<span style="color:green"> </span> Have no intention of letting it out while we are living aboard, I have no problem with letting it out while I am here on the spot to sort out problems. I lot different to being several thousand miles away & getting a call from the tennant to say there's a problem. <span style="color:green"> </span>
At Retirement
Travel from Jersey down through the French canals & eventually circumnavigate the Mediterranean.
Spend as much if not more time exploring rivers & canals (two thirds of the time on inland waterways?)

<span style="color:red"> </span> Keeping costs down Moorings & Marinas! <span style="color:red"> </span>
We want where possible to avoid expensive marina’s, which we perceive as being one of the biggest costs involved with living aboard.
Avoid July & August in the Med as these are the most expensive for using Marinas
Where possible avoid Marinas & anchor
Question
Once in the Med, (as I will have a low air draft boat) is it feasible / possible to use the canals / rivers as low cost mooring, for during the peak summer months and for overwintering?
How about on the Canal du Midi?
Or back up the Rone from Port st Louis? I’m thinking I’d probably need to go such a long way back up the river against the current towards central France before finding anywhere half decent to stop that it wouldn’t be worth it?
Are there any other rivers or canals around the French, Spanish or Italian Med coasts where a low air draft boat may be able to live inexpensively?

<span style="color:red"> </span> Research <span style="color:red"> </span>
Conclusions I have come to, trying to get all the info together in one place,
I have been making notes attached of items and useful suggestions I have come across on this forum as well as from books and talking to other people over the last year or so.

<span style="color:blue"> </span> So What Boat? <span style="color:blue"> </span> (My ideal Live aboard boat would be)
CE rating of B or better, for use on sea as well as the Canals. But have a very low air draft.
Needs to have an aft cabin, with an island berth
Single diesel motor / single propeller, to keep servicing costs down, 2 propellers are a liability on canal
Length (LOA)
Mediterranean marina pricing can be a bit banded, going up in big steps. (Up to 10, up to 12, up to 15m)
Many smaller Mediterranean harbours have a max 12m LOA.
But larger marinas at busy times tend to turn under 12m boats away, as bigger boats are more profitable
11m (37 foot) is about as small as you can reasonably go, as a proper, full time live aboard
12m (39 foot) or fraction under should be good (small enough for most harbours & avoid higher costs)
13.7m (45 foot). Keep below this, MCA reg’s kick in, not onerous at present but reg’s always get tighter
Must have full VAT paperwork, to avoid problems if staying for more than 3 months in Europe

Beam
Not likely to be a problem most canals take up to 5m beam although a few just 4.5m, most boats are less.
4m Beam is about ideal, just enough room for fenders, when using 4.5m wide locks.
Avoid significantly narrower than 4m boats. You get far more interior space adding Beam than Length.

Water Draft
1.2m all the French canals are useable including the Rance
1.5m most Canals including the Midi
1.8m restricted to the main Canals

Air Draft
2.5m air draft is the ideal, allows access to all waterways including the Rance.
2.7m air draft (as long as top of boat not more than 4m wide) allows access, full length of Midi Canal.
2.9m air draft all of Midi except Capestang bridge, you can turn off the Midi into the Med just before it
3.1m air draft most of the canal network through France (except Rance & Midi)
3.5m air draft restricts you to the main canals through the centre of France.

(A) <span style="color:blue"> </span> Types of boats consider <span style="color:blue"> </span>
Aquanaut Drifter 1150AK -11.65 x 3.85 x 2.45m air draft CE-B (A new CS Drifter model from Jan09)
Aquanaut Privilege 1150AK -11.65 x 3.85 x 2.45m air draft CE-B (also 1250 & 1350 but air draft’s 2.8)
Aquanaut Drifter 1250AK -12.65 x 4.1 x 2.48m air draft CE-B (A new CS Drifter model from Jan09)
(B) Other boats to consider, but would require compromise due to air draft.
Pedro Levanto 38 11.55 x 4.05 x 2.6m air draft. CE-B
Vri-Jon Contessa 40 12.1 x 3.85 x 2.7m air draft
Vri-Jon Contessa 45 13.7 x 4.15 x 2.75m air draft
Elling E3 13.2 x 4.25 x 3.45m aird CE-A. Semi Disp. big single, great sea boat! Not ideal but I like it.
Must haves:-
Island berth, double bed.
Washing machine,
Decent size cooker,
Diesel Generator. (If possible combined as a auxiliary wing motor?)
Big Fridge freezer,
Bow & stern thrusters.
Air Con for summer in the Med
Central heating for winter. (Even in most south Med frost’s common in winter!)
Water maker? (Possibly)

<span style="color:red"> </span> Tips. Advise from other live-aboard people, (Suggestions of needed items) <span style="color:red"> </span>

Alternator booster/ regulator, Sterling or similar.
Big anchor & lots of chain & a Fortress aluminum anchor as well, set up ready for use.
Power. A Generator, Solar panels & Wind generator. (You need them all for a diversified supply)
Very long power cable & adaptors. Canal power points usually in toilet blocks a long way from mooring
Very, very long hose pipe with as many adaptors and tap keys as possible. (as above)
Dinghy, decent sized & outboard but not so big two of you can't lift it up the beach
Davits or similar. For an easy way of daily, getting the dinghy on & off the boat.
Spare toilet pumps
Large capacity water tanks & a water maker
Water filter so you can drink water from the tanks
Fridge & Freezer.
Comfortable bed & mattress
Good insulation all around the boat but especially under the main bunks to reduce condensation.
Dehumidifier
Heating. 2x bullet proof heating systems, (don’t rely solely on electric)
Air conditioning
Full Covers for boat & a zip open window in the front of the spray hood.
Laptop & portable printer, used for everything, e-mails, Google earth, DVDs, Chart plotting
Entertainment system (radio/mp3/tv)
BIG cupboards, a wine cellar & plenty of storage space!
A couple of wire coat hangers
Head torch for each person
Fold up bikes
Sanitizing wet wipes in cockpit ready for use, wash hands after every lock. (Lots of [--word removed--] in the water)
Autopilot, a quality one. (Essential for sea passages at displacement speed)

<span style="color:red"> </span> Words of Wisdom <span style="color:red"> </span>
Go now! If waiting for everything to reach a mythical perfect time, you will never go.
Go as soon as you can, before age overtakes you.
Don't buy the biggest boat you can afford but the smallest you can comfortably live on.
Don’t buy or change too much first season, priorities change a lot once you are living aboard.
Don't let to-do list stop you going, will always be there, if boat’s sound go & sort along the way.
Ensure boat name’s easily understood. Every lock keeper has to write down the name of the boat
Keep systems simple if you can’t install it & fix it yourself; find an alternative that you can.
Cruising schedules change. Allow lots of time and all plans should be firmly cast in jelly.
Boat, engine & everything, repair & maintenance skills, take engine maintenance etc courses.
The safe comfortable things you give up are compensated by many inestimable things one gains.
Good sense of humor, willingness to enjoy rather than Find Faults.
Things break a lot on boats. Its part of the deal, get used to it, it's quite satisfying fixing them.
Everyone cocks up from time to time, all the time. Be tolerance of things & people.
France makes up for closing on Sunday, by closing Monday as well.
Respect for the locals.

<span style="color:blue"> </span> So what will it cost living on a boat? <span style="color:blue"> </span>
Using a budget for 2 (man & wife) to live on a 37 foot yacht posted by Jimp45 on the live aboard forum Jan 09. Except for live aboard insurance & lack of a contingency sum, it received comments that it looked realistic & even generous by some.
Using this as a starting point:- More fuel due to being motor rather than sail & keeping a 1 bed flat in Jersey, un-let and expecting to stay around the more expensive western end of the Med for the first few years at least.

I have adjusted it to create what I think will be needed for 2 of us on a 12m, single engine (probably Dutch steel) motor boat. Utilising the French Canals & West Mediterranean coasts.
THE BUDGET (2009 prices)

*Marina 6 months over winter costs £1500
*French canals yearly charge (12x4m boat) £ 400
Misc Marinas summer days costs £1000
Motor Boat Live aboard Insurance £1000
Maintenance & yearly Lift-out £2200
Flights, train / boat home 4 times yearly £1600
Fuel (Motor boat, single small diesel motor) £1800
Food and Drink £6000
Clothes £ 800
Medical (diabetic so got to expect some costs)£ 600
Misc items £1000
1 bed Jersey flat, (rates, service, insurance) £1800
Contingency fund for the unexpected £2000
Tax (Jersey tax on Pension income) £1400
Total budget for a years live aboard life £23,500

Notes:-
* Hopefully Marina contract can be avoided some winters by mooring on the canal networks at negligible cost.

Plan looks affordable or achievable?
At 60 No! (11 years time) I can start drawing just my work pension. (No chance, unless lottery win)
At 61½ Yes! (12½ years time) wife’s 60 & our combined work pensions are almost enough!
Savings can plug the funding gap for 2 years. Jersey state pensions, if opting for a 14% reduction can be taken from age 63 instead of 65. That will do! (Will take us to just the right side of the budget)

Generators needs to be rated at least 25% more than the total power in KW (amps x volts = watts) of all the appliances that may be run. E.g. A 850w toaster about 3.5A + A 2KW kettle about 8A
+ A 1,500w Hairdryer about 6A but will also have a start up surge, which will be at least 1A extra
So total for the above would be 18.5A x 240 volts = 4.44KVa so a 4.5KW generator would only just cope
Examples (All Approximate) Anything with a motor has a start up surge
2KW fan heater Run 8A start up surge add 2A so total’s 10A
TV Run 1.3A start up surge add 0.4A so total 1.7A Fridge Run 5A start up surge add 5A so total 10A
2.4KW Oven Run 10A start up surge 0 so total’s 10A 1.5KW Hob Run 6A start up surge 0 so total’s 6A
Air Conditioning & the Generator (Air Con has a huge start up surge)
The power required on start up to cover the surge is generally three times the power
A 5,000 BTU air con unit would be:- Run 3A start up surge add 7A so total is 10A
A10,000 BTU air con unit would be:- Run 5A start up surge add 11A so total is 16A
So to be realistic, minimum required if you aren’t going to turn everything else off while it starts up
5.5 KVA Generator if a small 5,000 BTU air con is fitted, or 7KVA if 10,000 BTU air con.
There are two types of generators, Hi speed 3,000rpm & low speed 1,500rpm units
The 3,000 rpm (lighter but noisier and require service more often oil changes, more suited to sports boats)
The 1,500 rpm (Heavier but quieter and require less maintenance, more suited to live aboard boats)
PTO Gen Consider Gene with a hydraulic power take off. If a single engine boat the power take off can be used to power an auxiliary folding prop or if Gen’s powerful enough, an electric motor folding prop?


Speed Rough & Ready displacement boat speed calculator. For boats in 25 to 45 foot range.
An extra 5 feet in length adds approx half a knot to the hull speed. (Water line length, not LOA)
e.g. 25 foot = 6.75 knots, 30’ = 7.39kts, 35’=7.98kts, 40’=8.53kts, 45’=9.05kts, 50’=9.54kts
All boats can go a bit faster than design speed, but not by much & at great efficiency expense.

Wow did i really write that much?
If you have got this far and still reading
Comments will be apprectated

Regards
Cafe Noir
 
Hang on a second, this is a post about you buying a boat and retiring in eleven years time? Extraordinary... This must be the most detailed long-long-term 'I want to liveaboard post' I've ever seen!
 
My friend you cannot plan that far ahead. I understand what you are asking/saying but due to the time frame am unable to give you firm answers to your questions.
 
The only thing that wont change should be your commitment to carrying out this well thought out plan.
Prices will change so you should INDEX link all your numbers for the future.
You seem to have a very complete picture in your mind as to what you want and what you will need, but your comfort levels seem high to my way of thinking, but that is just me.
As to your power consumption Very few appliances run for an hour a day except cooling and refridgeration systems so you power budget seems generous, but its better error on the side of caution.
Most folks on here will tell you that the sooner started the fewer the regrets and I'm in that group.
Good luck, time will see you on the water.
 
I think it's really sweet when folks get into their dreams like this. Personally I could never plan so far ahead but it's endearing when you see others doing it.
 
I take my titfer off to you sir - only one observation - you haven't organised the weather

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Eleven years? Forget eleven years, start now!
You've got enough time to poodle around finding out if you actually like boating, and what kind of boating. Hire a boat on the canals (preferably not July or August), although I'd recommend the Garonne/Lot/Baise rather than the Midi. Less cute, more attractive. Do some gentle Med sailing. Do a few courses.

There's nothing wrong with your list/plan but it inevitably reads a little bit naive. [but then we all are when we actually take The Big Step . . . that's part of the fun and the adventure]. Rather like itemising all the things to consider when buying a car, before one has actually driven. But it's great that you've taken the time to research and distil from lots of different sources and opinions.
All of the things on the list are possible and/or a good idea . . probably . . the way things are, right now.

Now you can start giving it a go. Good luck /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
There are two types of generators, Hi speed 3,000rpm & low speed 1,500rpm units


[/ QUOTE ]There are actually three types - the one you haven't considered is a DC genny. Search the archives here for lots of discussions/arguments - that should use up some of the next 11 years - but just briefly with a large battery bank and an inverter this will do all you want. AC is available all the time without starting a genny - we can even start and run our 12,000 BTU aircon/heating from the batteries via the inverter. The DC genny is quieter - less maintenance than AC - and it charges the batteries at 280 amps.
 
Hi it's good to plan and you are far more organised than ourselves. We decided 2 years ago to start planning, the plan has not changed apart from the boat we are buying, the country we are buying it in (changed twice) and the general location of our first year as liveaboard!
I suppose the thing is to have a plan but be flexible -
Only 4 months to go /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Many thanks for all the replys.

It was a cold wet windy day yesterday. I was board as weathers to bad to go down to the boat.
Just thought I'd share my dreams with you all.

Yes it's taking planning too far ahead, /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
but:-
Buying a flat now & renting out to help pay for it, is our funding plan.
Without the flat & the bit of security it will offer us (especially SWMBO) we would never go at 60.
The plan would become just another pipe dream.

Sometimes long term planning is neccesery, but I'm aware that the unexpected is always arround the corner, to trip you up & wreck the best laid plans.
Could have got gloomy speculating, will we still have a job this time next year, will our health suddenly fail? Are the pension predictions we recieve realistic? No one knows the answer to such questions.
So instead I get on with looking for the short term dream (Not much longer until spring & boating again) & the long term dream, (no more working and life on a boat) just over a decade to go!

Now where was I /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I'h yes booking to go to the Amsterdam boat show in September
To dream & look at steel boats.
You never know! we aim to buy a second hand one in about 8 years! A new one we see at the show, may eventually end up (an owner or two down the line) as being the boat we eventually end up with!

Best regards to you all /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Cafe Noir
 
Blimey, if I had known it was that difficult, I would never have done it...I used to work for guy who, when presented with detailed plans, would just say say JFDI - which apparently stands for "just flaming do it"

All the very best with your plans anyway, we irresponsible ones rely on you planners to keep the lights on and the beer cold /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
That's not a bad list and analysis. Things will change price-wise and income-wise for you but if you put that into a spreadsheet you will be able to revisit it. I doubt you'll need a sternthruster and even a bowthruster isn't essential.

I'd go for a twin diesel, myself though I don't know if there are any implications for the canals. From my experience around the Channel Islands, I would feel uncomfortable with just a single engine and radar is, to my mind, a due diligence item in those waters.

I wouldn't size my generator to be able to run a kettle. Using a genny to boil a kettle is a very expensive way to make a cuppa...when we were buying red diesel it didn't matter but paying €1 per litre for DERV makes it a bad deal. Use gas.

I rather think that there will be some tremendous deals around on boats from this summer to next summer. I wouldn't suggest getting into debt to buy one (though inflation could pick up and work to your advantage) but look around carefully.
 
Glad to hear I wasn't the only one sat at work yesterday, dreaming about sailing the seven seas instead of working!

Ours is a 6 year plan, 4 1/2 years through.

It started with the birth of my daughter and the realisation that the current boat was not big enough. So the thought process went... get a bigger boat. While we are at it we might as well get the biggest we can afford, we might want to go sailing for real some time. Actually why don't we take a year out and go sailing? So what do we need/want?

So working our way through that list, finding all the horrors the previous onwer left us to discover and trying to save some money, fingers crossed August 2010 will be the start of washing the decks each morning instead of beating down the M4.

Got to have dreams, got to have plans to make the dreams come real. Keeps me going!

(Good luck)
 
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