My ideal 30 foot yacht

Malo37 said:
There's a long and well documented history of many (probably hundreds) rudder failures of all types, but mostly spade rudders and mostly failure of the stock at the hull penetration. Not a prejudice, just looking at the available data. I was very surprised to see during this past winter that a largish Jeanneau i.e. 45 ft plus had a GRP stock. To me that's an unnecessary cost saving induced risk.
Regarding my opinion of saildrives, I just don't see the logic of cutting a big hole in the bottom of your boat, arranging the power train so it has to go through two 90 degree direction changes with all the additional moving parts and bearings, having the final gearbox underwater and finally encasing the whole thing in highly corrosion prone aluminium.
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If you want to understand the data then you need to look behind the headlines and you will find the failures are specific rather than general. That is there is not widespread failure across the boat population. You can find the same pattern of specific failures in skeg hung rudders, but again no general pattern. GRP and Carbon Fibre rudders are common in racing orientated designs, and apart from systemic failure of certain American Hunter designs, again random failures, usually in boats being pushed to their limits. Suggest you read the ABS standards on rudder design which many builders use and then you might see why there are so few failures in cruising boats.

As to saildrives, they have now been on the market for over 30 years. There seem to be no reported failures of the seal in use, nor is corrosion a problem if you maintain your anodes. As quandry suggests once you have experienced the undoubted benefits of a saildrive you perhaps would not want to go back to old fashioned engineering which was only like it was because there was no alternative at the time.

Ask the question as to why spade rudders are almost universal now and why saildrives have taken the majority of the market. Not all those people, designers, builders, buyers are likely to be wrong. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the perceived disadvantages.
 
Malo37 said:
There's a long and well documented history of many (probably hundreds) rudder failures of all types, but mostly spade rudders and mostly failure of the stock at the hull penetration. Not a prejudice, just looking at the available data. I was very surprised to see during this past winter that a largish Jeanneau i.e. 45 ft plus had a GRP stock. To me that's an unnecessary cost saving induced risk.
Regarding my opinion of saildrives, I just don't see the logic of cutting a big hole in the bottom of your boat, arranging the power train so it has to go through two 90 degree direction changes with all the additional moving parts and bearings, having the final gearbox underwater and finally encasing the whole thing in highly corrosion prone aluminium.
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You make a lot of good points. Coupled with the horrendous expense of replacing a saildrive engine and gearbox it looks a poor deal for the secondhand buyer.

That said, they are very smooth and don't leak often. It is a matter of weighing up what suits you and your intended use - this concept however is very tricky for some.
 
doug748 said:
You make a lot of good points. Coupled with the horrendous expense of replacing a saildrive engine and gearbox it looks a poor deal for the secondhand buyer.

That said, they are very smooth and don't leak often. It is a matter of weighing up what suits you and your intended use - this concept however is very tricky for some.
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Unfortunately failure needing replacement is not unique to saildrives as the many threads on here about the subject attest. If you are doing a complete replacement including all the worn out 30 year old ancilliaries there is very little difference in overall cost, particularly if you are paying for installation. Buying an old boat with an engine nearing the end of its life is a risky business irrespective of type.

If we have this conversation in 20 years time when the real volume of saildrive boats get into the replacement window, suspect it will be a non issue. People, including me who formed their views 30 years ago tend to be resistant to change. However once you have made the leap you appreciate the advantages of modern designs and would not go back.
 
"there is very little difference in overall cost, "


Really? In replacing a saildrive unit over a shaft drive engine?

Perhaps we should have some practical examples? A new Beta 20 will cost c3.7k plus under £1.000 for all the extra bits.

How much is a 20hp saildrive with prop? We should be told.
 
Depends on what you are replacing. If you need modified beds, new propeller, exhaust system, controls your £1k for bits can easily end up double which brings it up close to a new Volvo D1 20. If you are replacing an existing Volvo, installation costs are likely to be lower. In the whole scheme of things these differences are not deal breakers. Whether it is £6k or £8k to replace an engine on a 35 year old boat which is probably worth less than twice that might have an impact on what you pay for the boat but is not necessarily a reason to reject the boat.

Looking at saildrives from the 1990s, so 25 years old, you see few replacements. This is partly because the engines are better and cooled by fresh water, but also because they live in nice clean dry surroundings so don't suffer from neglect and corrosion common in older boats and engines with seawater cooling, leaky stern glands, leaky cockpits etc. You only have to look at the engine bays of 1970s and 80s boats to see what I mean, never mind the constant stream of threads here on knackered engines, leaking sternglands, loose P brackets, bad engine alignment and all the other ills that don't exist with saildrives.

Remember the past is a different country and the failings of boats and engines built then should not colour ones views of boats built now or in the recent past
 
Malo37 said:
Regarding my opinion of saildrives, I just don't see the logic of cutting a big hole in the bottom of your boat, arranging the power train so it has to go through two 90 degree direction changes with all the additional moving parts and bearings, having the final gearbox underwater and finally encasing the whole thing in highly corrosion prone aluminium.
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The logic lies with the builder who can design to site the entire engine weight at an optimal balance point in the hull and easily drop the complete assembly into position in one operation without adding all the extra drive train components and lining them all up. In short, it saves the builder time and money.

I share your objections to saildrive with its commitment to change the seal regularly and once turned down a friend's affordable offer of what for a long time had been my dream ship, an immaculate HR31, due to its saildrive configuration. But then, I admit to being a dinosaur.
 
Tranona said:
But you hit the bottom! Not a good idea in any boat.
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Yes ,but very lightly, whilst aground I was not in the least concerned, just irritated at being careless
The point being offered is that spade rudders can be vunerable. I think that if I had been hit by a big sea & gone backwards ( say when using a bow drogue ) it may well have had the same result. Then the outcome would be quite different

People do run aground quite often & a deep unsupported spade can be at risk
I hit most sand banks in the Thames estuary in my Stella & never once damaged the rudder. Only my ego

I am too old for another boat, but if I was in the market for one, to do offshore cruising, I might well put a skeg hung rudder on the list of very desireables. However, as pointed out, the range of boats becomes much more limited
 
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bitbaltic said:
+1. I can't remember ever seeing a thread here about somebody wanting to replace a saildrive (although somebody will now go find one to prove a point). We get lots about engines, but not saildrives.
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There was one some time ago, which brought to my attention the cost. In his case it was in the region of £9 thousand for parts. I have no deep feelings either way for saildrive units generally but glossing over the drawbacks does nobody any favours.

Here is some indication of the possible cost:

http://www.yachtboatparts.com/volvo-penta-d1-30-and-saildrive-1409-p.asp

So the balance is over 8 thousand pounds against under 5. As saildrives are starting to reach the end of their lives it might reasonably be expected that it will become a more popular topic.
 
doug748 said:
There was one some time ago, which brought to my attention the cost. In his case it was in the region of £9 thousand for parts. I have no deep feelings either way for saildrive units generally but glossing over the drawbacks does nobody any favours.

Here is some indication of the possible cost:

http://www.yachtboatparts.com/volvo-penta-d1-30-and-saildrive-1409-p.asp

So the balance is over 8 thousand pounds against under 5. As saildrives are starting to reach the end of their lives it might reasonably be expected that it will become a more popular topic.
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Your £5k is a gross underestimation. You may recall Snooks give full detail of the cost of the Beta fitted to his Sadler 32. His bill was near £10k, and would suggest this is more representative of the real cost. Having done two engine replacements myself I am well aware of how costs mount up if you want a trouble free installation, having cheese pared on the first one and suffered unreliability as a consequence.

Fail to see why a small difference in replacement costs of an event that may or may not occur 30 or 40 years down the line should have any significant impact on a purchase decision on a new(ish) boat. In the context of overall lifetime costs of a boat that costs new £100k+ a thousand or two is irrelevant. Of course it may well be different if you are buying a 30 year old boat that is in imminent need of a new engine the type of engine may well be a critical factor, but as I suggested earlier any cost difference may be reflected in the price you are prepared to pay, just as you would pay less if the sails were knackered and new sails cost £3k+. This is no different from any other purchase - for example do you look at the replacement cost of an engine when you buy a new car? Do you know how much more a Golf engine costs than one for a Focus?
 
Daydream believer said:
Yes ,but very lightly, whilst aground I was not in the least concerned, just irritated at being careless
The point being offered is that spade rudders can be vunerable. I think that if I had been hit by a big sea & gone backwards ( say when using a bow drogue ) it may well have had the same result. Then the outcome would be quite different

People do run aground quite often & a deep unsupported spade can be at risk
I hit most sand banks in the Thames estuary in my Stella & never once damaged the rudder. Only my ego

I am too old for another boat, but if I was in the market for one, to do offshore cruising, I might well put a skeg hung rudder on the list of very desireables. However, as pointed out, the range of boats becomes much more limited
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While a rudder with a bottom bearing is arguably less vulnerable, the more common partial skeg which has the advantage of giving some balance is equally vulnerable. Guess if you think running aground is something you do routinely then there is sense in having a fully supported rudder accepting the downsides, but that does not apply to the vast majority of peole and the small risk of damage is more than outweighed by the advantages.

Interestingly I have most of my experience of spade rudders (and saildrives) in the charter business in Greece where boats are heavily used by inexperienced people and frequently back up to quays that are shallow and rock strewn. Of course there is some damage to rudders and engines and drives get a lot of abuse, but there are nowhere near the problems that you would imagine.
 
Tranona said:
Your £5k is a gross underestimation. ?
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The engine and gearbox would be c 3.7k the saildrive example I have given is 8.3k

The extra expenditure you cite amounts to fitting a prop and shaft, a cutless, a stuffing box and a coupling. Explain to us how this mounts up to £4600 in order to make the two engines comparable in replacement cost.
 
doug748 said:
The engine and gearbox would be c 3.7k the saildrive example I have given is 8.3k

The extra expenditure you cite amounts to fitting a prop and shaft, a cutless, a stuffing box and a coupling. Explain to us how this mounts up to £4600 in order to make the two engines comparable in replacement cost.
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That Volvo example was a 30hp, not a 20 so not a like comparison. Your £3.7k is I suggest not the latest market price but maybe I am out of touch, although that is significantly lower than prices when I last bought a similar engine 7 years ago. Add in mounts if needed, exhaust, controls, depending on what you are replacing and labour and it soon mounts up. Rather than taking my guesses, suggest your read Snooks article in YM a couple of years ago where he gave a full break down of costs to replace a Bukh with a Beta - the bill came to near £10k.

Anyhow, this is not an issue for buyers of new(ish) boats. The difference over 30 years is pin money. It is of course as I keep on pointing out potentially an issue for people buying boats with engines nearing the end of their life. They can make up their own mind whether the small difference is significant for them - just like any other item of imminent expenditure needed to make the boat function.

The basic question in this thread is not about replacement costs it is about whether particular features of a boat are desirable or not, and the objection to saildrives was based on an engineering perspective. As I have demonstrated over and over again the empirical evidence does not suggest that long term life is any different from shaft drive, and in the meantime users (and builders) get the advantages of the system in terms of packaging in the boat, lack of vibration, no leaks into the boat and more effective propulsion. Not surprising that every year more new boats are using them. The two big users of shaft drives, Beneteau and Jeanneau are progressively introducing them across the range.
 
Unless I am missing something, this is the better page from the same people in order to compare prices.

http://www.yachtboatparts.com/new-volvo-penta-diesel-engines-183-c.asp

This page shows the same engine (Volvo D1-30) with either a conventional gearbox (£5,999) or saildrive (£6,953) so the price differential for those two products is £954.

The products are not equivalent as the saildrive is a complete unit (afaik) whereas the gearbox requires coupling, prop, shaft gland, P bracket, and propellor.
 
Ask the question as to why spade rudders are almost universal now and why saildrives have taken the majority of the market. Not all those people, designers, builders, buyers are likely to be wrong. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the perceived disadvantages.[/QUOTE]

Simple answer - both offer cheaper options for the builder. A modern mass produced, shallow flat bottomed hull is significantly cheaper to fabricate and not amenable to a traditional engine installation.
 
That is just not the case. They offer superior performance and are both widely used on expensive boats. Cheap boats have always tried to reduce costs given the ruling technology. Don't agree that a modern hull is cheaper than older style hulls. Perhaps if you were around when hulls were being moulded 30 or 40 years ago you would appreciate how crudely and cheaply they were built - and not just the cheaper boats. Modern hulls are infinitely better engineered and built to far higher standards than cheap boats of the past and offer much more for the consumer as a result. You can buy flat bottomed boats with conventional drive shafts. All the small Beneteaus and Jeanneaus use shaft drives in competition with saildrive boats and manage to make the most of their hulls. The overall cost of installation at factory level is very little different, but of course the saildrive provides a more reliable installation as there is no need to carry out alignment. Both manufacturers are, however moving to saildrives on some of their ranges reflecting the level of acceptance amongst buyers.
 
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