Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?
Your point being?
Your point being?
My day skipper RYA cert, did I earn it?
- Thread starter Koolie
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?
[ QUOTE ]
Your point being?
[/ QUOTE ]
Merely reminded of something by your talk of getting a driving licence without having to sit a school practical exam. As it's clearly boring/not directly on point enough, it's deleted.
[ QUOTE ]
Your point being?
[/ QUOTE ]
Merely reminded of something by your talk of getting a driving licence without having to sit a school practical exam. As it's clearly boring/not directly on point enough, it's deleted.
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?
I thought it was interesting. What was the rest of the story as wasn't going to subscribe to Moscow Times to read it?
I thought it was interesting. What was the rest of the story as wasn't going to subscribe to Moscow Times to read it?
G
Guest
Guest
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?
It was 12 years ago now so my memory has faded... I probably have a copy of the article filed away somewhere back home. Basically the ups and downs of learning to drive in Moscow. Quite a few ups and downs!
It was 12 years ago now so my memory has faded... I probably have a copy of the article filed away somewhere back home. Basically the ups and downs of learning to drive in Moscow. Quite a few ups and downs!
BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?
sounds fascinating. See if you can dig it out or just recreate it (another thread probably)
sounds fascinating. See if you can dig it out or just recreate it (another thread probably)
peterb
Well-Known Member
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?
[ QUOTE ]
Great in theory, but some schools will have a nucleus of examiners to chose from & will tend not to re-book those who 'fail' their pupils. Even if mandatory licencing came in, there would still be this abuse, whether at YM/CS or DS level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Back before the days of the "UK Sailing Academy" at Cowes, the same site was used for the National Sailing Centre. NSC had quite a reputation for high failure rates; the two courses I took there both failed 50% of the pupils.
The result of this was that the school also got a reputation for high standards. If you passed at NSC then you were worthy of your pass. Admittedly this might have deterred some people, but generally speaking even the failures went away praising the school and intending to return for another go.
There's a similar problem in general education. The average level of A-level passes has gradually been improving. The public interpretation of this, though, is not that the standard of teaching has been improving, but that the qualification standard has been falling.
If you ask the RYA how many people take training courses, they will repond by telling you how many certificates have been sold to schools. They don't know how many people take courses but fail, and they don't know how many of the certificates sold are then wasted. (I know of one school, for instance, where the certificates are made out before the course; anyone failing doesn't get the certificate, which is then scrapped but gets counted into the RYA score of certificates issued.)
At Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster level, the examiners are supposed to be independent. They were supposed to be arranged through four exam centres, but gradually schools realised that they could just as easily contact the examiners without going through a centre. Perhaps it's time we got back to an independent system. A bit like the driving test centre really; you turn up and take pot luck on which examiner you get.
[ QUOTE ]
Great in theory, but some schools will have a nucleus of examiners to chose from & will tend not to re-book those who 'fail' their pupils. Even if mandatory licencing came in, there would still be this abuse, whether at YM/CS or DS level.
[/ QUOTE ]
Back before the days of the "UK Sailing Academy" at Cowes, the same site was used for the National Sailing Centre. NSC had quite a reputation for high failure rates; the two courses I took there both failed 50% of the pupils.
The result of this was that the school also got a reputation for high standards. If you passed at NSC then you were worthy of your pass. Admittedly this might have deterred some people, but generally speaking even the failures went away praising the school and intending to return for another go.
There's a similar problem in general education. The average level of A-level passes has gradually been improving. The public interpretation of this, though, is not that the standard of teaching has been improving, but that the qualification standard has been falling.
If you ask the RYA how many people take training courses, they will repond by telling you how many certificates have been sold to schools. They don't know how many people take courses but fail, and they don't know how many of the certificates sold are then wasted. (I know of one school, for instance, where the certificates are made out before the course; anyone failing doesn't get the certificate, which is then scrapped but gets counted into the RYA score of certificates issued.)
At Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster level, the examiners are supposed to be independent. They were supposed to be arranged through four exam centres, but gradually schools realised that they could just as easily contact the examiners without going through a centre. Perhaps it's time we got back to an independent system. A bit like the driving test centre really; you turn up and take pot luck on which examiner you get.
Melody
Well-Known Member
We also run an RYA practical school and here are some comments on our experience. We do have failures at Day Skipper level. I intend to look at the percentage this winter but I would guess it is about 10%.
Our courses are 6 days long and we normally take a maximum of 4 students. We are in a non-tidal area so some parts of the course are simpler than in the UK. All this means that our students probably get more instructor time that is the norm, and yet some still fail.
The most common reason for failure is that candidates have not got the necessary pre-requisite sailing and theoretical background. This week, for instance, we have 3 DS candidates who told me that they were all very experienced. I was on board this morning when the Instructor was asking them about where and what they had sailed. Two of them have only ever sailed dinghies before and they are taking their course on a 44foot yacht.
Their theory is good so they could pass if they work hard, but it makes it very hard work for the Instructor too.
We get a lot of people who haven't done a shorebased course and say that they are going to learn the theory by private study before they come, then they don't have time. etc etc.
I would say that our standards are high but fair. Our Instructors are encouraged to ask themselves if they feel that the person would be safe to take a small boat out in familiar waters in calm weather, with their family or friends on board. They don't have to sail with great skill or speed - just be safe.
Another reason for failure can be due to personality combined with lack of care. Some people are over-confident and even arrogant about their abilities. If they are also careless this can be a dangerous combination.
When this type of person does not pass the course they can get quite annoyed. We have had a couple of people who have stormed off, despite the fact that they failed because they showed totally insufficient knowledge of navigation and/or the collision regulations and put the yacht in unsafe positions both in relation to other boats and to shallow water on more than one occasion during the course.
One of the above people failed at Coastal level. She had Day Skipper from a big school in a warm climate, but our Instructor would barely have given her a Competent Crew certificate.
Most reputable schools should have a feedback system from their students and the RYA does check these, but I guess a large school would have so many that perhaps they don't look at them in detail.
Like Al Jones we would welcome 'secret shoppers' as an additional check. What a nice job for someone too? But it could be a tricky thing if he/she had to pretend to be incompetent to see if the school failed them.
One of the Instructors who worked for us has told us that a previous school he worked for made his life very difficult if he failed anyone, so I do know that there are schools where this happens.
Suggest the best thing is to find a school by personal recommendation.
By the way, MOB under sail is not in the Day Skipper syllabus. You should be able to do it under motor, and if all the students have done it well and there is time, the Instructor may have shown you how to do it under sail, but you'd only be expected to do it yourself at Coastal level and above.
Cheers
Melody /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Our courses are 6 days long and we normally take a maximum of 4 students. We are in a non-tidal area so some parts of the course are simpler than in the UK. All this means that our students probably get more instructor time that is the norm, and yet some still fail.
The most common reason for failure is that candidates have not got the necessary pre-requisite sailing and theoretical background. This week, for instance, we have 3 DS candidates who told me that they were all very experienced. I was on board this morning when the Instructor was asking them about where and what they had sailed. Two of them have only ever sailed dinghies before and they are taking their course on a 44foot yacht.
Their theory is good so they could pass if they work hard, but it makes it very hard work for the Instructor too.
We get a lot of people who haven't done a shorebased course and say that they are going to learn the theory by private study before they come, then they don't have time. etc etc.
I would say that our standards are high but fair. Our Instructors are encouraged to ask themselves if they feel that the person would be safe to take a small boat out in familiar waters in calm weather, with their family or friends on board. They don't have to sail with great skill or speed - just be safe.
Another reason for failure can be due to personality combined with lack of care. Some people are over-confident and even arrogant about their abilities. If they are also careless this can be a dangerous combination.
When this type of person does not pass the course they can get quite annoyed. We have had a couple of people who have stormed off, despite the fact that they failed because they showed totally insufficient knowledge of navigation and/or the collision regulations and put the yacht in unsafe positions both in relation to other boats and to shallow water on more than one occasion during the course.
One of the above people failed at Coastal level. She had Day Skipper from a big school in a warm climate, but our Instructor would barely have given her a Competent Crew certificate.
Most reputable schools should have a feedback system from their students and the RYA does check these, but I guess a large school would have so many that perhaps they don't look at them in detail.
Like Al Jones we would welcome 'secret shoppers' as an additional check. What a nice job for someone too? But it could be a tricky thing if he/she had to pretend to be incompetent to see if the school failed them.
One of the Instructors who worked for us has told us that a previous school he worked for made his life very difficult if he failed anyone, so I do know that there are schools where this happens.
Suggest the best thing is to find a school by personal recommendation.
By the way, MOB under sail is not in the Day Skipper syllabus. You should be able to do it under motor, and if all the students have done it well and there is time, the Instructor may have shown you how to do it under sail, but you'd only be expected to do it yourself at Coastal level and above.
Cheers
Melody /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The old story of the lunatic released from the asylum comes to mind. " I have a piece of paper saying I am sane. You don't".......!
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I DO have one of these!! I bought my way in and bought my way out (long story, and abroad).
Should have asked my certificate to also be "endorsed" as a Yachtmaster /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The old story of the lunatic released from the asylum comes to mind. " I have a piece of paper saying I am sane. You don't".......!
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually I DO have one of these!! I bought my way in and bought my way out (long story, and abroad).
Should have asked my certificate to also be "endorsed" as a Yachtmaster /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
alant
Well-Known Member
Re: My DS RYA cert, did I (earn it) - put the effort in?
"She had Day Skipper from a big school in a warm climate, but our Instructor would barely have given her a Competent Crew certificate."
__________________________________________________
Had a similar experience with some so-called 'fast track' people recently.
They already had been awarded their Day Skipper, but were only comp crew level, this on their 4th intensive 'at sea' week! Very little knowledge of Col Regs/Lights/Shapes, even though they had done their theory at the same school. Following week, were going onto their Coastal/YM Theory & intended to learn what 'ball/diamond/ball' etc meant then! These guys were paying lots of money & were still not motivated to learn (& they were intending entering the pro sailing market). /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Another on the same boat, had been signed off on her Comp Crew dinghy, without having ever been in one! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Are the RYA to blame, or are candidates these days always expecting things to be dumbed down?
Might get away with it on the street, but not at sea!
"She had Day Skipper from a big school in a warm climate, but our Instructor would barely have given her a Competent Crew certificate."
__________________________________________________
Had a similar experience with some so-called 'fast track' people recently.
They already had been awarded their Day Skipper, but were only comp crew level, this on their 4th intensive 'at sea' week! Very little knowledge of Col Regs/Lights/Shapes, even though they had done their theory at the same school. Following week, were going onto their Coastal/YM Theory & intended to learn what 'ball/diamond/ball' etc meant then! These guys were paying lots of money & were still not motivated to learn (& they were intending entering the pro sailing market). /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Another on the same boat, had been signed off on her Comp Crew dinghy, without having ever been in one! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Are the RYA to blame, or are candidates these days always expecting things to be dumbed down?
Might get away with it on the street, but not at sea!
bobgosling
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, MOB under sail is not in the Day Skipper syllabus. You should be able to do it under motor, and if all the students have done it well and there is time, the Instructor may have shown you how to do it under sail, but you'd only be expected to do it yourself at Coastal level and above.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I came to do my MOB drill the engine kept cutting out - then a voice from under the cockpit sole said "You seem to have an engine problem - pick up under sail". Naughty Instructor was hitting the stop lever whenever it tried to start ! Eventually took us 30 minutes due to cocking up the first couple of approaches. Brought home to us the importance of issuing a Mayday BEFORE attempting recovery because if it had been a real situation there would have been a high chance of hypothermia for the MOB.
By the way, MOB under sail is not in the Day Skipper syllabus. You should be able to do it under motor, and if all the students have done it well and there is time, the Instructor may have shown you how to do it under sail, but you'd only be expected to do it yourself at Coastal level and above.
[/ QUOTE ]
When I came to do my MOB drill the engine kept cutting out - then a voice from under the cockpit sole said "You seem to have an engine problem - pick up under sail". Naughty Instructor was hitting the stop lever whenever it tried to start ! Eventually took us 30 minutes due to cocking up the first couple of approaches. Brought home to us the importance of issuing a Mayday BEFORE attempting recovery because if it had been a real situation there would have been a high chance of hypothermia for the MOB.
Doug_Stormforce
Well-Known Member
Interesting discussion
Firstly Why do we need mystery shoppers? Mystery shoppers need to be paid a salery and that would be be paid by the RYA charging higher recognition fees which would have 2 effects, we as schools would have to charge the general public more and sailing would become a little more inaccessible to some people.
We are busy enough with genuine customer we dont need mystery shoppers to measure if we are doing the job right. Surely our real customers who arrive with real expectations are the best judges of our product.
Secondly like every school we have customers who are qualified to Dayskipper already but appear to be barely Competent Crew. This is often not the fault of the previous school but what happens to anyone who does not practice. If someone takes a Comp crew course this summer, a dayskipper theory and practical next year and then waits 6 months before next going sailing of course they will have forgotten a large chunk of what they have learned. We are of course all only human and this problem is not unique to just sailing.
Firstly Why do we need mystery shoppers? Mystery shoppers need to be paid a salery and that would be be paid by the RYA charging higher recognition fees which would have 2 effects, we as schools would have to charge the general public more and sailing would become a little more inaccessible to some people.
We are busy enough with genuine customer we dont need mystery shoppers to measure if we are doing the job right. Surely our real customers who arrive with real expectations are the best judges of our product.
Secondly like every school we have customers who are qualified to Dayskipper already but appear to be barely Competent Crew. This is often not the fault of the previous school but what happens to anyone who does not practice. If someone takes a Comp crew course this summer, a dayskipper theory and practical next year and then waits 6 months before next going sailing of course they will have forgotten a large chunk of what they have learned. We are of course all only human and this problem is not unique to just sailing.
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
I am not against folk getting "qualifications", but I think it is just common sense what happens in a commercial environment when the paid teachers are also the examiners............I guess there MAY be a reason why driving instructors are also not the examiners!
Folk should just treat these courses as an OPPORTUNITY for gaining experiance / knowledge - how much you extract from this is 100% down to you - just cos someone has paid money and got the bit of paper at the end does not mean someone is actually competent.
FWIW if at the end of the course someone realises how much they still have to learn (not meant to be a derogatory comment) and also to know when they SHOULD be scared! then IMO the instructor has done his job as they have the basis for learning at their own rate. Ain't no quick route to knowledge and experiance - When everything goes well you can get away with a lot, but the sea can be very unforgiving when things go wrong.
Folk should just treat these courses as an OPPORTUNITY for gaining experiance / knowledge - how much you extract from this is 100% down to you - just cos someone has paid money and got the bit of paper at the end does not mean someone is actually competent.
FWIW if at the end of the course someone realises how much they still have to learn (not meant to be a derogatory comment) and also to know when they SHOULD be scared! then IMO the instructor has done his job as they have the basis for learning at their own rate. Ain't no quick route to knowledge and experiance - When everything goes well you can get away with a lot, but the sea can be very unforgiving when things go wrong.
Melody
Well-Known Member
Hi Doug
You’re right about many students only sailing once a year. As we are in a warm climate we get that a lot – people take a one-week sailing holiday or course in the sun in the same way that they may take a one-week skiing holiday in the winter. We always encourage our students to join a local sailing club and offer to crew for members but many of them don’t do anything between their Competent Crew and Day Skipper courses.
However, these students are typically only weak for the first couple of days of their next course. They soon get used to being back on board a boat and remember the skills that they learned.
What I’m talking about are the few who are still weak at the end of the course. Sometimes they do not appear to have studied any theory, despite us making it clear before they come on the course that they must either have a Shorebased certificate or have studied (from books or CDs) to an equivalent level. The ones that are a real problem are those that fall into the ‘incompetent but arrogant’ category.
Of course you are also right about it not being realistic to have “mystery shoppers”. I do think that the RYA could do more to monitor pass rates and standards though. For instance, there is no reason why they could not collect the numbers of students who have taken courses and the numbers who have passed these courses when they do the annual inspection of each training centre. At least this would give them some idea of an average pass rate and they would spot any schools that are well above or below the norm.
At the very least they could then discuss the issue with the Principal of the school when doing their annual inspection to see if there’s a reason for their being different.
I think the RYA do a very good job in keeping up high standards of yachts, instructors, and syllabus. Our Principal was also involved at one point in ASA courses, the American syllabus, and I think the RYA is streets ahead of that. To become an ASA centre you merely pay your money. They don’t inspect the yachts that are used or the qualifications of the people giving the tuition, and the courses frequently cost far more than those at RYA training centres.
The one area that the RYA could tighten up a little is monitoring whether schools are giving certificates merely for attending a course rather than achieving a satisfactory level of competence.
I think that if you give certificates to everyone it devalues them. People who pass the Day Skipper practical course should feel that they’ve really achieved something. As has been pointed out, hopefully they should also realise how much they still have to learn.
You’re right about many students only sailing once a year. As we are in a warm climate we get that a lot – people take a one-week sailing holiday or course in the sun in the same way that they may take a one-week skiing holiday in the winter. We always encourage our students to join a local sailing club and offer to crew for members but many of them don’t do anything between their Competent Crew and Day Skipper courses.
However, these students are typically only weak for the first couple of days of their next course. They soon get used to being back on board a boat and remember the skills that they learned.
What I’m talking about are the few who are still weak at the end of the course. Sometimes they do not appear to have studied any theory, despite us making it clear before they come on the course that they must either have a Shorebased certificate or have studied (from books or CDs) to an equivalent level. The ones that are a real problem are those that fall into the ‘incompetent but arrogant’ category.
Of course you are also right about it not being realistic to have “mystery shoppers”. I do think that the RYA could do more to monitor pass rates and standards though. For instance, there is no reason why they could not collect the numbers of students who have taken courses and the numbers who have passed these courses when they do the annual inspection of each training centre. At least this would give them some idea of an average pass rate and they would spot any schools that are well above or below the norm.
At the very least they could then discuss the issue with the Principal of the school when doing their annual inspection to see if there’s a reason for their being different.
I think the RYA do a very good job in keeping up high standards of yachts, instructors, and syllabus. Our Principal was also involved at one point in ASA courses, the American syllabus, and I think the RYA is streets ahead of that. To become an ASA centre you merely pay your money. They don’t inspect the yachts that are used or the qualifications of the people giving the tuition, and the courses frequently cost far more than those at RYA training centres.
The one area that the RYA could tighten up a little is monitoring whether schools are giving certificates merely for attending a course rather than achieving a satisfactory level of competence.
I think that if you give certificates to everyone it devalues them. People who pass the Day Skipper practical course should feel that they’ve really achieved something. As has been pointed out, hopefully they should also realise how much they still have to learn.