My day skipper RYA cert, did I earn it?

I thought that the D/S practical certificate was to say that you'd done the course, not that you'd reached a standard. That's certainly the impression that I was given.

In fact, I did ask my instructor if he'd ever failed anybody. He said there was one occasion when a woman had been dragged along by her husband, but refused to handle wet ropes. The instructor thought that failing her was the kindest thing to do!

Also, it's worth noting that not all instructors are created equal, even when they work from the same school. I'd strongly suggest getting a recomendation of a specific instructor, and insist that your course is taught by him/her.
 
[ QUOTE ]
RYA thingies (apart maybe from YM) are certificates of attendance

[/ QUOTE ]
got to disagee from my personal experiences

20% of the people on a DS theory course I attended were failed - Tonbridge Adult Education Centre a few years back. They had attended all 26 weeks without fail as far as I could tell.

I did an ICC via direct examination expecting it to be a little bit like 'turn up and talk the talk' - especially as I had been based at the marina the school was at for 4 years and well know for using my boat a lot in all weathers.

Not a chance - q1 have you got your oilies and a flask? we will be out some time and it's nasty out there! 5 hours later, drenched and exhausted, we sat down with a cup of tea to run through more theory questions as well! The practical covered many things I had never considered before (or since) and I will never forget turning the boat though 180 on the pontoon against wind and tide with 1 warp, 1 fender and the engine in those conditions as long as I live.............Medway Sea School based at Medway Bridge Marina.

I have read a lot of stories on here that, without my own experiences, would have led me to believe your generality. However I do not believe it to be as representative as you suggest.

Finally, I would highlight the problems that schools have with the weather - 1 respondent on this thread had winds of 2-3knots..............another it was F7+ the whole time. They can only do their best.
 
Koolie, Don't worry about not having sailed onto a mooring - I don't think thats actually part of the DS syllabus. The best thing you can do is go through the book and check that you understand everything in there.

The big problem with DS practical is that what you get out of the course varies greatly depending on your fellow students' level of competance. If the skipper has to spend time going through stuff that they should already know (eg comp crew or DS theory) then you will only have time to do the bare syllabus (which tbh, can be covered in 3 days). On the other hand, if you all are up to scratch then the skipper will push you with more advanced stuff like sailing onto moorings.

Either way, I would say that all it takes to be given the certificate is non-incompetance and the correct attitude to the course. Its certainly not proof of excellence but then again its also purely voluntary with no legal status so it doesnt have to be.
 
OK - the things I do at the moment I can do if I think about it, but more importantly through the Day Skipper course I am conscious where I am incompetent and therefore don't go there until the 3rd state on your list is reached.

(Having said all that I am still finding things that I was unconsciously incompetent about but non of them dangerous as yet.)
 
You missed

Incompetent arrogance.... I don't give a **** nobody can tell me I'm wrong
Competent arrogance....... I never get things wrong anyway

Both pretty common.....!

Takes a truly self confident and competent skipper to say

I think I get most things right most of the time but please tell me if you notice something I missed...... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Thanks for the compliment! As my son said recently.... get the best from the few years left while you can take advantage of your experience before the Altzheimers sets in...... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
As far as the rest is concerned, I think I would rather sail with a prat that had done a minimum course than a prat that hadn't, provided that he still recognised that he was a prat..... The problem is with prats who have done a course and think they are now highly competent. We can all act like prats from time to time.......
 
What the RYA site says:
Day Skipper Practical Sailing Course (Tidal)
This course gives you the chance to take charge on short passages under instruction. You will concentrate on pilotage, boat handling, seamanship and navigation. Designed for tidal waters.

Course type: SAIL CRUISING
Suggested minimum pre-course experience:
5 days, 100 miles, 4 night hours on board a sailing yacht.
Assumed knowledge:
Basic navigation and helmsmanship. It is recommended that you attend the Day Skipper shorebased course before taking this practical course.
Course content:
Pilotage, boat handling, seamanship and navigation.
Ability after course:
Can skipper a small yacht in familiar waters by day.
Minimum duration:
5 days - either as 3 weekends or 3 days plus 2 days.

It leaves a lot to interpretation, maybe the book is a bit more explicit.

When you sign up for any course you should receive a timetable and syllabus, then you can tick the boxes and know that you have done what you signed up to do. Did anyone get anything like that?
 
The Instructors Handbook is quite clear on this - Day Skipper candidates can and should be failed if they fail to reach a certain standard by the end of the course. This should be a rarity if the course is well organised, but occasionally it will happen.

The instructor has quite a lot of leeway, but every now and then he/she is bound to come across a candidate they have to refuse a certificate to (in the nicest possible and most tactful way of course).

What happens in these circumstances is that the instructor signs off as many of the 14 sections in the candidate's logbook as he/she honestly can, and the candidate can then complete the course with a day or so's instruction/assessment on the areas not signed off. (With a different school or the same school).

What SHOULD happen is that the instructor identifies individual weaknesses early on in the course, discusses them candidly with the candidate(s) and works on them so that by the end of the week the award of a certificate is not in question - but occasionally this process will either not happen (poor planning or other circumstances) or the candidate will simply require more instruction in a particular area than there is time to give on the course.

The DS practical certificate should not ever be seen purely as an attendance certificate IMHO - it is a certificate of competence, and can be swapped directly for an ICC - which otherwise involves a practical exam.

- Nick
 
The syllabus (three pages of it) is included in the logbook.

One of the problems is that many of the items depend on the weather. Generally speaking, in the course of five days (minimum) there will be sufficient variation to allow the syllabus to be completed. However, if you stick to a rigid timetable then the chances are that when you want particular conditions the weather will be just the opposite. It's probably better to take advantage of conditions as they occur, rather than saying "on Thursday afternoon we will ....".

Oh, and mooring under sail is in the syllabus.
 
when i did my dayskipper, we had a guy who had problems trying to sail, at the end of the course he got competent crew instead, which was in my opinion, the right thing to do. If you go on a course, nowadays the schools seem to not want to fail anyone. but if you dont make the grade, you don't get the cert..and you would probably either, not take the course again and go and try something else as a hobby, or swot up and make sure you pass next time, as its your own money your wasting.

I had a lot of experience before taking my d/s. but did not have time to take leave in uk to take a course.(and i thought the course would be quite hard to pass).
But within the first 2 days the instructor asked me if i would oversee the others, so he could concentrate on the ones who where having difficulty.

I knew that i had passed then, but still did all the tasks as well...
 
I have a question based on some replies content ....

Many have said that the Cert. is given out - as school would like them to return for more courses etc.

Now my question is ..... should a person that is not capable of passing DS on completion of the course - should he be given the cert. Or would it be better to offer a discounted second attempt at the course ?

I just feel that handing over a piece of paper as it seems some have ... could be worse than no paper at all - does the person actually get told of his lack of ability ? or does he close ears and boldly stride away ....

If we should reach the stage where insurance co's and / or Govt. legislation is enacted requiring boat skippers to be licensed ....... it becomes an even more serious matter than now ......

Maybe it's a possibility to "grade" a certificate ..... so that the paper is actually marked with level the person achieved - sort of like the old idea with O'Levels / CSE's etc. - you didn't fail - but got a grade. And before you move up in courses - should attain a certain grade ?

Just questions / ideas ?????
 
Re: I have a question based on some replies content ....

If/when licensing does happen, IMHO tests should be graded by some-one independent of the sailing school where you trained. Should there be sailing school involvement anyway? Feel you're up to it? Go take the test! If/when it happens, of course
 
Re: I have a question based on some replies content ....

Certainly earnt mine. Remember it well. November 1994.
All week it was f7 -f8's. 3 others on the course. It was quite clear that at least one of us wouldn't make it. As it happened 2 of us passed and the other 2 were informed that maybe they should seek other interests!!
In those conditions they were a bit of a liability.
Great week though. Really sharpened up sailing skills and I learnt alot from an excellent(freelance) instructor.

Fenders
 
\"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?

"IMHO tests should be graded by some-one independent of the sailing school where you trained. Should there be sailing school involvement anyway?"

Great in theory, but some schools will have a nucleus of examiners to chose from & will tend not to re-book those who 'fail' their pupils. Even if mandatory licencing came in, there would still be this abuse, whether at YM/CS or DS level.

Most schools rely entirely upon the integrity of their instructors, who often are the only 'representatives' of the school the pupils interact with. We would all prefer to have high standards, but many pupils simply want a piece of paper which they think is a magic pill - (want to sail? simply add to a large body of water).

Pupils have access to the syllabus before & during courses, pupils want to have the responsibilty of skippering, pupils should therefore DEMAND that the instructor/school give them the training. This training could save their lives/make their sailing more enjoyable & relaxing. So why not have the same attitude as in their other consumer purchases? Could it be that some simply do not want to put the effort in & treat courses as a holiday? Many do.

Instructors/schools won't be out there with them when the 's--t' hits the fan, whatever that 'piece of paper' reads. Pupils surely don't want anything that easy, its a bit like lying to yourself & 'pieces of paper' have a habit of dissolving very quickly when wet.

If you want to go sailing, remember that YOU are the first 'emergency service', so put some effort into learning how to ring your brains 999! Don't simply transfer blame to others.
 
Another question ....

How many people go on a school sailing course - because it's a good way to get afloat and effectively "charter-holiday" that also gives a "Piece of Paper" at end of it ?

Now I don't expect anyone here to answer yes to above ..... but I have a feeling that there are quite a few ...... I know it would cross my mind - Book a course - get a Certificate at end of it .... I know I'm going to be "safe" with a Skipper .... and cost is not that much different to booking a charter ......

??????
 
Re: Another question ....

"I know it would cross my mind - Book a course - get a Certificate at end of it .... I know I'm going to be "safe" with a Skipper .... and cost is not that much different to booking a charter ......"

Totally agree!
Simply be 'honest' with the school.
Most are quite happy for people wanting a low cost top-up sailing experience (& perhaps learn something as well).
 
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame?

[ QUOTE ]
"IMHO tests should be graded by some-one independent of the sailing school where you trained. Should there be sailing school involvement anyway?"

Great in theory, but some schools will have a nucleus of examiners to chose from & will tend not to re-book those who 'fail' their pupils.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, schools should have no say in who the examiner is.

Eons ago, when I learned to drive in Canada there was no obligation to go through a school. You could just book an exam. You presented yourself at the examination centre and an examiner tested your theoretical knowledge and practical skills.

You did not know who the examiner was going to be, and the examiner did not know if you had learned to drive at a school or from a parent.
 
Re: \"Nanny State\"entering sailing world? Who\'s to blame? *DELETED*

Post deleted by SimonCr
 
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