Motorsailers - How well do they sail?

[ubuysa]

We're looking at buying a liveaboard for the two of us for use in the Med. We've mainly been looking at GRP sailboats but we've been aboard a couple of 48 foot, long-keeled, steel motorsailers and were very impressed with the layout of the accomodation. It seemed they'd been designed primarily as liveaboards rather than charter boats. One was a ketch and the other a cutter rigged sloop.

My question is: how well do they sail? Indeed, do they sail at all or are the sails just for decoration? I realise they won't sail at all well in light winds of course, but I don't want to be limited to motoring everywhere. Sailing is fun after all /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Many thanks.....Tony Cross

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[Talbot]

If you are looking for space, well ventilated accomodation, and reasonable sailing ability (but perhaps not outstanding to windward) I would have suggested looking at a cat, but am afraid to now in case I get flamed again for espousing the cause of multihulls. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

So I will just say, that an important part of a liveaboard is to be able to appreciate the view, and thus choose a boat that you can actually see out off.

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[boatless]

Flaming, whatever can he mean?

Short answer is that some sail well, some don't. What are you looking at?

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[ubuysa]

They're both custom built, though there is also a (GRP) Colvic ketch (50ft) that's interesting if only because it's cheap!

Tony C.

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[boatless]

Strangely enough, I have sailed a Colvic 50 Ketch. Name was Champion. Seem to recall that it was a bit under canvassed for light airs, but fine otherwise. Had it down to storm jib and mizzen in a nasty Channel gale, sailed well. Think it was an extended hull, there's about 12 feet of straight line in the middle.

If you can do a sail area to displacement and length, and a total weight to ballast set of comparisons, should give you a reasonable guide. Deduct a bit from performance prediction for ugly hulls!

<hr width=100% size=1>my opinion is complete rubbish, probably.

 

[snowleopard]

motor sailers come in a wide variety of guises from the fishing boat hull with a little sail (colvic watson is an example of this) to a sailing boat with a big engine.

things to help you decide are: does it have a deep keel? if not its windward performance will be limited. the best indicators are the area/displacement ratio and displacement length ratio. these will help you determine if it's a heavy tum or a lightweight flyer and whether it has enough sail to push it along in less than a gale.

here is a website that does the calculations for you: <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__sad_ratio.htm>http://www.sailingusa.info/cal__sad_ratio.htm</A>

don't assume all motor sailers are slow - i've had 11 knots under power and 17 under sail!

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[ubuysa]

Many thanks for this, and also to boatless for similar advice. That's a VERY intersting website!

Tony C.

<hr width=100% size=1>There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't.

 

[mocruising]

I had a wood Miller Fifer 40 ' for a few years lots of character but if your looking to sail forget it, we rarely turned the Gardener off it ran on nothing in terms of fuel but was noisy.

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[boatmike]

I have had cause to support Talbots opinions before, but then I would as we are both catamaran sailors. I have however owned a number of monohulls including 2 motorsailers in the past and would say that cats go to windward as well as motorsailers and off the wind the cat will leave most monohulls standing. For livaboard in the med however you won't do a lot of sailing anyway (that should start a storm of comments) so what's the point? Cats give you twice the space and at anchor don't roll about like a round bilge motor sailer does. So if you like to sleep soundly at anchor the MS can be worse than a normal fin keeler. Neither have the cats comfort. One advantage (probably the only one I can see) however is if you chose to take the canal route down. There the MS comes into its own and the cat is at a destinct disadvantage. Personally however for this I would buy a proper displacement motorboat (not a gin palace) and dispense with sail entirely.
Just an opinion..........


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[ccscott49]

Sailing in the meddy is not the best, if you intend to liveaboard and want to go smewhere, then a motorsailer is a good bet. The more modern designs sail quite well, but down here, there is either too much wind, not enough wind or iots on the nose. Believe me, I live down here and have a big motor sailer.

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[guillermogefaell]

You can find some information on motorsailers and motorsailing at:
http://banjer37msclub.tripod.com/motorsailing.htm

 

[Grehan]

Medwind

Before we came into the Med people told us that there would either be to much wind, or no wind at all.
It's amazing. They were absolutely right.

Coming down here (Marbella) the pattern was often no wind in the morning, calm seas. Then the seas would kick up a bit, and the wind got up a bit. Perhaps an hour's 'proper' sailing, maybe a bit more. Then at about 14:30 the wind would shift direction, dead on the nose. Didn't matter which bit of coastline, heading south, south-west or west, it was dead ahead.

On one memorable occasion, going from Aguilas to San Jose we had 8 hours of sea as flat as a millpond as far as the eye could sea. Very spooky.
Our very short trip from Port Olimpico round to Port Vell was memorable for the severe chop and the nasty backwash that bounced off the long Barcelona harbour wall. Is this a regular thing?

 

[mikewilkes]

Re: Medwind

[ QUOTE ]
Our very short trip from Port Olimpico round to Port Vell was memorable for the severe chop and the nasty backwash that bounced off the long Barcelona harbour wall. Is this a regular thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to be that way a lot.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Medwind

Depends how big the sail area is. You can never have too much sail! But you can have too much sail up for the conditions!

 

[PeterStone]

Re: Medwind

We are entering the Med this summer and everyone we have met virtually has said the same thing too - either too little wind or too much.
Are these conditions encountered further offshore? And what do people mean by too much wind? F6 say or gale force?

I have tried to dig around official publications, pilots and so on, for more authoritative information to get a balanced picture because I am aware that people often remember disproportionately the bad weather that they encounter.

I haven't got any publications to hand but average wave heights and frequency of gales in the summer months seemed quite low from memory. Would your experiences bear this out?

I also read about short, steep seas. Coming from the shallow waters of the East Coast I would say that I'm used to those - but are the med seas of a different magnitude?

 

[trouville]

Re: Medwind

During the summer you have a breez between 11.00 and 16.00!

Ive often thought of buying a "cat" They do well in the med sailing ,Just too things have put me off, the models ive seen for sale have had sleeping accomadation in the narrow hulls and not quite head room in the middel but tons of space overall. And there is something very nice about a catamaran

As for the engin some have one and lot have two! so motorings is fast as well.I really like the fact that there shallow draft which opens up many places to stay or leave the boat

If you go to Cogolin youll see dozens or "catanas" for charter now they really are big!! Which will be a drawback in the med place in a port? cost 1.5X and places are at a premium

Still with a catamaran you get a lot of boat for your money no keel bolts to worry about and can just use a "cum-a-long" to put her on the beach to clean and paint bit.I like catermarans very much, but ive never had one and never sailed on one, but i have had many a G&T aboard them!

 

[PeterStone]

Re: Medwind

<If you go to Cogolin youll see dozens or "catanas" for charter now they really are big!! Which will be a drawback in the med place in a port? cost 1.5X and places are at a premium>

I'm already dreading the cost of mooring a monohull in the med after 2 years in the canals - so I'll pass on the idea of a cat!

Cogolin I know fairly well - there was a reasonable amount of free space when I was last there about 4 years ago but from what you say, it sounds as though things have changed.

 

[Grehan]

Re: Medwind

2 years in the canals . . . sounds great!!!

 

[trouville]

Re: Medwind

Yes it really has changed! Cogolin(marines) always had empty places even in august now youll be lucky if you find a place in winter!

I wanted a place in Port Cogolin for a new small boat i bought just up to April which is when the port season changes, I got one but it was only by luck and by no means sure i would get a place!

Port Cogolin has all the shops near(boat shops) and is very quite and shelterd great place to work during winter!The Casino super market there has become VERY expensive and crowded in season!

I drive up to the town of Cogolin for food shopping. And the wine is better from the Grimaud co op than the Cogolin Just go one way comeback the other avoid traffic (in season) and pick up the wine on the way!

If your really stuck for a place to stay for a few weeks or a month or to try Toulon, Say you really need a place, and youll be leaving in 2/3 months

I expect youll end up in Spain thats where everyone seems to be heading? Have a good time, and dont worry about the wind, the mistral can blow but in summer but it will mostly provide you with a quick pasage!But do check the forcast

Checking the forcasts regularly you generaly get plenty of advance warning of strong wind.Mostly people coming from the UK dont find the wind "strong" untill theve been there for a few weeks, drifting slowly along from area to area,when 4/6 hours of engins under a sun shade with a slight breez is more comfortable than 8/10 hours of sailing in scorching heat!!

 

[PeterStone]

Re: Medwind

Thanks for the great advice. We're not sure about Spain - maybe as far as Barcelona but probably no further south than that. We both love the French Med coast and we are looking forward to sailing it. The cost is a real consideration but we can always retreat to the canals for the winter.

I actually had my last boat booked into Beaucaire, on the Rhone a Sete, for the winter - £360 yearly charge (few years ago) - paid the deposit of £50 and then pulled out because we bought a new boat. The port returned the £50 to us when we cancelled, without being asked!

We do tend to leave the boat for periods of up to a month because we need to return to the UK from time to time, so Toulon looks a useful stopover.