Motorboater v Yachtie. Who has better seamanship?

[Victoria Sponge]

It just depends on the individuals concerned. Nothing to do with the vessel they choose.

I'm a great believer that experience and practice are the best lessons of all, regardless of what you sail.

 

[pmagowan]

Sailors are probably more competent at sailing and Moboers at moboing. I think there is probably more to know about when sailing but that doesn't equate to making sailors more competent than moboers. In fact it also means there is more that you should know but don't (is that a Rumsfeltism?). Are they not two different disciplines even if related?
I have spent my time on boats in a mirror dingy, a rib, a 38' Bucchanan and now my very own 28' Honeybee. I know a bit about sailing but am learning more and more about being a skipper of my own boat and how she works. I have no clue about the big mobos I see in peoples avatars. If I took one out I would be incompetent and may not be able to even turn it on. We should all have a partial understanding of 'the other side of the force' because this helps us to be courteous and understanding of our friends on the water.

I dont think the cardiologist is incompetent because he can't mend a broken hip!

Paddy

 

[AndieMac]

Sailors are probably more competent at sailing and Moboers at moboing. I think there is probably more to know about when sailing but that doesn't equate to making sailors more competent than moboers. In fact it also means there is more that you should know but don't (is that a Rumsfeltism?). Are they not two different disciplines even if related?
I have spent my time on boats in a mirror dingy, a rib, a 38' Bucchanan and now my very own 28' Honeybee. I know a bit about sailing but am learning more and more about being a skipper of my own boat and how she works. I have no clue about the big mobos I see in peoples avatars. If I took one out I would be incompetent and may not be able to even turn it on. We should all have a partial understanding of 'the other side of the force' because this helps us to be courteous and understanding of our friends on the water.

I dont think the cardiologist is incompetent because he can't mend a broken hip!

Paddy

Well said mate!

 

[DAKA]

The red mist

Seamanship isnt the danger.
in the main sail and power have equal abilities but everyone has to learn.
Scumsail certainly tip the scales in the solent to give sailors a bad name.

However the real danger is in the red mist that sailors suffer from.

Many boats are all male crews, without a women around men behave very differently , mischievous and aggressive egging each other on a bit like football hooligan mentality.

Having sailed and having done 300 nm a day in a mobo (bit like sailing in that all male crew and used to take over 12 hours sometimes) its easy to get on track and become focused, you block out the elements in order to maintain course and get in a mind set totally focused on holding a course.

The next time you see a raggie heading at you , staring into oblivion and ignoring you bear in mind he could have been out for 18 hours without good company (at best another raggie) which is a bit like solitary confinement, could also be lacking in nutrition/hydration .

Now I am not suggesting they are all permanently mentally deranged , once they settle down and have a drink to rehydrate most return to normal within a few days (evidenced in that you have loads of raggie mates in your marina you welcome on board and find raggies that have only gone a few miles that day good company )

If you require evidence you need to read this about a family who sailed round the world one of whom became an axe murder of his own father (alright , perhaps I went a little over the top, Herbert managed to survive the ordeal .)

 

[Firefly625]

daka, one of your comments made me remember a few weeks back meeting my parents in Yarmouth, they had just had a rather amusing situation.

They were moored on the pile moorings, had a race boat come alongside and after a while my Dad just asked in a nice way if they were going to put out shorelines, to which a rather tired skipper said, well we've come a long way and we are all a bit tired, but OK we will do it in a minute...

The next day my dad asked were they had come from, Rhode Island was the response...

 

[Scubadoo]

In the same area a while ago I was waiting for a space to clear on the pontoon opposite the Folly. I'd been hovering off for 4 or 5 minutes, a boat to a boat and a half's width off moored boats to my starboard, (I was pointing towards Newport). The boat I was waiting for cleared their ropes and started to pull out when I glanced back to see a large yacht on a direct course for our stern. Again I held station until the boat was a length off my stern and bearing down fast. I had to engage engines and make a pretty hasty get away so as not to get hit. At the closest point we were probably on 10 feet away with the yacht maintaining a direct and steady course. Had I not got out of the way they would have hit me. You guessed it, he slid straight into the newly vacated slot. I popped round and gave him a piece of my mind to which he merely shrugged his shoulders and turned away. I probably should have just tied up alongside without shorelines and walked all over his boat but I'm too polite!
Henry

I think you will always come across people who are careless or don't give a damn, but I think most of the kind of things I have seen are more to do with charter boats like sunsail. One particular event that I always remember, I watched a sunsail approach east cowes marina where he motored straight into the berth bow on, the boat bounced back and the guy on the bow jumped off, it alarmed me to think it was all planned that way and right behind me. If you ever watched the film Captain Ron the marina scene, it was a bit like that without sharp turn at the last minute.

At the end of the day, if a sailing boat can collided with an Oil tanker off cowes recently during cowes week, then I'm afraid there is no hope, just do what you have been doing - keep a good lookout.

 

[Resolution]

At the end of the day, if a sailing boat can collided with an Oil tanker off cowes recently during cowes week, then I'm afraid there is no hope, just do what you have been doing - keep a good lookout.

Lookes at from another perspective, only one yacht collided that day with the bright orange tanker. ALL THE REST (and there were lots) managed to avoid any collision.
So why don't all the motor boats who are anxious about Colregs and collisions just paint themselves bright orange?

 

[l'escargot]

At the end of the day, if a sailing boat can collided with an Oil tanker off cowes recently during cowes week, then I'm afraid there is no hope...

How about when a motorboat can sink a passing 31 foot sailing boat as it reverses out of a marina space...

You can't judge everybody on isolated incidents.

 

[Scubadoo]

How about when a motorboat can sink a passing 31 foot sailing boat as it reverses out of a marina space...

You can't judge everybody on isolated incidents.

Sorry I should have been perhaps a little clearer, I was just providing an example of what can happen in the context of Henry's post, it wasn't meant to mean all sailing boats are the same. For that matter it could easliy have been a motorboat from what I have seen over the years, but like others have said, you don't see many charter motorboats like you do with sailing boats who seem to me to be the worse.

 

[John100156]

We can all cite various experiences of bad boat control. I was sitting on the back of my mobo in Torquay marina one day and witnessed a 40+ft sail boat reverse out of his berth straight into the stern of a mobo opposite, crunching his dinghy onto it's davits. A really careless manoeuvre.

Then again, a mobo berthed next to me in Sant Carles recently crashed into a fellow forumites Birchwood that had previously been in my berth, decorating his porthole with a bow anchor!

We all see many things......

I wonder if it would help if it was mandatory for every boat owner to receive at least some professional training, akin to say the RYA Day Skipper, before they are allowed to skipper a boat. Then again, I suppose there are a lot of people driving cars that are not particularly good drivers!

There are good and bad skippers in both groups and there always will be, good skippers will make mistakes less often but they will still make mistakes!

I like the banter between the raggies and mobos, it's good fun. As a mobo I also really like to see the raggies out on the sea with their sails fully charged and boat heeled over, it's a brilliant sight. I try very hard to ensure I do all I can to be as courteous as I can be to them and often receive a friendly wave (rarely of the two fingers kind ;-) as I pass, it's great to see them showing what good sailors they are as my wake hits them at 28k...... Just kidding.

 

[henryf]

A mistake is a mistake, reversing out of a tight spot and inadvertently collecting another vessel could conceivably be excused depending on circumstance although I like to think as a skipper I'm careful to check my surroundings before casting off.

In both the examples I cited these were cold calculated decisions not made under any pressure. There was an easy "out" in both cases, simply carry on motoring in a straight line but change course slightly to avoid hitting someone. My man coming out of Cowes had made a conscious choice to drive straight into the path of oncoming boats, it wasn't just a case of seeing me as a solitary motorboat. He had to battle all the other boats entering the harbour on the correct side of the channel.

I wonder if what I've seen in recent times has something to do with the differences in how the different sides perceive hazards? As a motor boater I'm travelling at 20 plus knots and as such look quite some way ahead planning my course well in advance as I transit a busy area such as the Solent. Add to that the fact I create a wake and so need to give smaller craft as wide a berth as possible it makes me careful to avoid any potential close contact.

A sailor on the other hand travels much slower and so sees that they can wait until much later before having to alter their course. Take the sails out the equation and when under power they must feel almost invincible to the point where they can judge contact risk in terms of inches rather than feet.

There is another factor as well, and one which is growing year on year. Racing. When racing sailors use their boats tactically to force their fellow competitor into a course change. Given the course change will cost time and distance the decision to do so is left until the very last minute. So late in fact that it is necessary to equip each boat with a protest flag in case the stand on boat feels the other guy didn't get out of the way properly.

Whereas once sailors were happy to simply cruise from port to port as we do in our motor boats now many feel the need to add a competitive element to their weekend. Witness as an example the racing style livery on Sunsail's newest fleet. So you have whole armies out there who think nothing of getting 10 feet or so from other boats.

I race cars and on track we are the same to the point where occasionally the personal space reduces to zero as you lean on someone a little . Go on a track day with road car drivers and what I would consider to be leaving masses of room they would think was pure aggressive hooliganism.

Just a thought ?


Henry

 

[Lakesailor]

I reckon L'Escargot has it.
The number of threads on Scuttlebut that begin by asking which 35ft yacht would be best for .............
and then go on to ask do they need a licence or qualifications to sail the boat..

Now it may be that many are shooting the breeze or actually have some earlier experience, maybe in dinghies.

But it does make you wonder where the old trail of 18ft - 26ft - 30ft - etc went.
For some reason I look at a 30-odd foot yacht with mam, dad and the kids on board and assume they are a nautical family.
It may be they have just cast off on their first ever sail.

 

[l'escargot]

A mistake is a mistake, reversing out of a tight spot and inadvertently collecting another vessel could conceivably be excused depending on circumstance although I like to think as a skipper I'm careful to check my surroundings before casting off...

That's an interesting view.

... A sailor on the other hand travels much slower and so sees that they can wait until much later before having to alter their course. Take the sails out the equation and when under power they must feel almost invincible to the point where they can judge contact risk in terms of inches rather than feet.

There is another factor as well, and one which is growing year on year. Racing. When racing sailors use their boats tactically to force their fellow competitor into a course change. Given the course change will cost time and distance the decision to do so is left until the very last minute. So late in fact that it is necessary to equip each boat with a protest flag in case the stand on boat feels the other guy didn't get out of the way properly.

Whereas once sailors were happy to simply cruise from port to port as we do in our motor boats now many feel the need to add a competitive element to their weekend. Witness as an example the racing style livery on Sunsail's newest fleet. So you have whole armies out there who think nothing of getting 10 feet or so from other boats.

I race cars and on track we are the same to the point where occasionally the personal space reduces to zero as you lean on someone a little . Go on a track day with road car drivers and what I would consider to be leaving masses of room they would think was pure aggressive hooliganism.

Just a thought ?


Henry

I think you probably over estimate the number of sailors who race and probably very few of the Sunsail racers cruise - even fewer would own a boat themselves.

As for sailors judging distances in inches and motorboaters judging them in feet, I hope not otherwise there will be a lot of motorboats having difficulty berthing.

 

[colingr]

It's not just Sunsail that exhibit poor manners/ handling. A certain flotilla yacht up the Hamble managed to annoy several boats who were patiently waiting upstream of the fuel berth when one of the several flotilla members decided to head downstream, execute a 180 and barge onto the pontoon. What really p'eed us off was that the fuel berth man didn't kick him off but let him fill up. I was all for a bit of mooring warp cutting but swmbo stopped me

Not really good behaviour when there were 6 or so queueing boats already there.

Fairview my arrus