markc
Well-Known Member
Congratulations, enjoy the boat!
Motorboat Newbie's Change Of Direction
- Thread starter londonrascal
- Start date
MrB
Well-Known Member
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jrudge
Well-Known Member
Interesting to see the OPs reply to these observations that the boat seems not the match the spec .....
As an aside unless something is wrong with he hydraulics there is no reason other than at low idle for the thrusters not to generate full power or there abouts when used together. The 65 had them and cat had a low idle high idle switch. At hi idle they were fine.
As an aside unless something is wrong with he hydraulics there is no reason other than at low idle for the thrusters not to generate full power or there abouts when used together. The 65 had them and cat had a low idle high idle switch. At hi idle they were fine.
petem
Well-Known Member
It's probably this boat http://www.boatwizardwebsolutions.c...nits=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=32184&url=, not the one that was linked to earlier.
MrB
Well-Known Member
I think you could be right Pete, when i posted the link to the other boat he never confirmed or denied it, just a wink. It would explain the thrusters too....."Bow thruster - 20hp hydraulic, Stern thruster - 12 hp electric"
However this one is 24v where the other is 12v?
The other had the "high-low" tv setup, this one doesn't? It's like a mix of the two lol. Maybe there is another?
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londonrascal
Well-Known Member
MapisM
Electronic throttle: It is not Kobelt controls - they were removed and replaced with a new system from ZF which has a host of control boxes under the floor but DO connect to physically gear box and engine throttle cables, so should the electric system fail you can (albeit in a crude fashion) get control of your engines physically. Just as you would was mechanical to helm and the throttle cable broke.
The Boat itself: The boat I have is a 535 Sunliner and no it was not the one that was linked to previously, I let that go but here is the boat I have: https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1 - like most, these come with a Crane from factory but unlike most, the previous owner wanted to lift his Williams Rib up and the existing Crane was not up to it, so a new SS crane support was manufactured to beef up the job and an updated with a higher strength Carbon 'line' fitted to be able to lift the Rib up and onto the sundeck roof. I have been told she has an incredible list on her when the rib is lowered over her Port side. I will let you know what that is like in real life one day.
Air-con: The Air-Con uses over 20Amps to begin, then settles to about 18 ish Amps. I am seriously unhappy with the performance of the heat aspect of the system, and if the cooling aspect is not much better, then it will be away with the system and do as I have spoken of in the past having a commercial off the shelf system with the outdoor unit in a new GRP enclosure on the swim platform to hide it away in, and we can utilize the existing plumbing for the Glycol mix and air handlers and when the outdoor unit gives up the ghost they damn sight easier and cheaper to replaced than marine units - also no need for sea water inlets, filters and winterizing and the constant running water you get overboard from marine systems.
Stabilizers: Sincemost of the time she will not be at sea, but in a Marina on a fresh water inland river system (Norfolk Broads) I am just not going to worry about the stabalisers. I wonder why it comes back time and again about this and the wish to have it, boats roll - and I am find with that, as are many others who have posted their views, but you like some others say not and need them. I have sought clarification and find it is not a safety issue, but a comfort issue. Well, that is why there are so many hand rails about the boat to make sure you can get to beer chiller and back to the saloon lol. Seriously try taking a fully displacement river boat to sea and find out about roll if you can be comfy with that, you can on a Trader.
Electronic throttle: It is not Kobelt controls - they were removed and replaced with a new system from ZF which has a host of control boxes under the floor but DO connect to physically gear box and engine throttle cables, so should the electric system fail you can (albeit in a crude fashion) get control of your engines physically. Just as you would was mechanical to helm and the throttle cable broke.
The Boat itself: The boat I have is a 535 Sunliner and no it was not the one that was linked to previously, I let that go but here is the boat I have: https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1 - like most, these come with a Crane from factory but unlike most, the previous owner wanted to lift his Williams Rib up and the existing Crane was not up to it, so a new SS crane support was manufactured to beef up the job and an updated with a higher strength Carbon 'line' fitted to be able to lift the Rib up and onto the sundeck roof. I have been told she has an incredible list on her when the rib is lowered over her Port side. I will let you know what that is like in real life one day.
Air-con: The Air-Con uses over 20Amps to begin, then settles to about 18 ish Amps. I am seriously unhappy with the performance of the heat aspect of the system, and if the cooling aspect is not much better, then it will be away with the system and do as I have spoken of in the past having a commercial off the shelf system with the outdoor unit in a new GRP enclosure on the swim platform to hide it away in, and we can utilize the existing plumbing for the Glycol mix and air handlers and when the outdoor unit gives up the ghost they damn sight easier and cheaper to replaced than marine units - also no need for sea water inlets, filters and winterizing and the constant running water you get overboard from marine systems.
Stabilizers: Sincemost of the time she will not be at sea, but in a Marina on a fresh water inland river system (Norfolk Broads) I am just not going to worry about the stabalisers. I wonder why it comes back time and again about this and the wish to have it, boats roll - and I am find with that, as are many others who have posted their views, but you like some others say not and need them. I have sought clarification and find it is not a safety issue, but a comfort issue. Well, that is why there are so many hand rails about the boat to make sure you can get to beer chiller and back to the saloon lol. Seriously try taking a fully displacement river boat to sea and find out about roll if you can be comfy with that, you can on a Trader.
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londonrascal
Well-Known Member
So just so people know and can stop the wondering the Trader I have is this:
https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1"]https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1"]https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1
This is the 'spec'
Teak interior throughout - lounge: Newly upholstered throughout - New blinds/ curtains - New fitted carpets in lounge/VIP bedroom and master bedroom
POP up Sky TV in Saloon, serves all other rooms
DVD
Music
Galley: Double sink set with Corian surfaces
New hob/oven - Fridge/freezer
Washer\dryer -Dishwasher
Microwave
Cabins
Master en-suite (aft) with double bed - full length mirror in teak frame - Dressing table with seating - plenty of storage space - Hanging lockers
Heads: wash basin set in marble surface, shower and wc hot and cold mixer taps, heated towel rail ,shaver socket, Extractor fan
VIP forward with double bed - full length mirror in teak frame - Dressing table with seating - plenty of storage space - Hanging lockers
Starboard twin cabin with single beds- hanging locker & storage
Deck Equipment:
Teak laid to flybridge - Fender racks - Fenders - Warps - Stainless steel doors - frame-less windows - GRP canopy - ‘L’ shaped aft deck seating seating for 8 - Fitted BBQ unit c/w fridge and sink units plus storage – new.
Aft deck area fitted with new [removable] enclosure covers
Passerelle - Swim platform and swim ladder
Opacmare jib crane for Rib – new - top deck remote handheld control - Heavy duty electric capstans fwd/aft
Stainless steel doors - Bimini
Systems
Engines – 2 x 500shp Yanmars – 560 hours – fully maintained - Thrusters – fwd/stern – 20hp hydraulic units controlled from fly and main helms - Throttles – Micro commander electronic type with remote ‘wandering’ unit - control both Throttles and Thrusters from anywhere on the vessel - Emergency stop control on both shafts programmed into to throttles - Trim tabs - Exhaust overheat alarms - Extra fuel tank midships 90 gals
13.5 Kw Generator with sound sheild - Remote start - Separate battery
Navigation:
E series nav setup, 15” screens linked to Raymarine Radar and Chartplotter/ autohelm. Also linked to rear ‘colour’ camera view and forward looking sonar.
Garmin backup chart plotter
McMurdoch weather station/GPS
GMDS comms
Sat phone - Sat TV – KVH - Trim tab LED indicators - both stations - new -
Chain counter
Remote anchor chain control from both helms
Safety
8 man Liftraft – fully in date- Epirb – in date - Automatic bilge pump - Fire extinguishers (hand held) Fire extinguisher in engine room
She is unusual with a Port helm, which I really like actually, along with the extra seating and the electric high/low table to starboard. She has twin 500Hp Yanmar's and the usual 13.5Kw Generator with just 450 Hrs. Was built in 2002 - December - so close as you like to a 2003 model. Bonded glass, all tinted makes another nice feature, along with the uprated crane and supports to take the Williams 285 Rib on top of the 'sun deck'. She has new fit ZF electric throttles with remote unit that you can control Thrusters and engines from 'anywhere on the boat' and has had a lot of cosmetic improvements too like all new carpets, teak blinds by Ocean Air fitted, new upholstery throughout, new hob, new battery charger, new exhaust pipes - serviced annually come what may with original Yanmar parts including all engine anodes being changed. The only thing that does not work is the stereo.
I recon I have a nice one, the first owner only had her a short time from build to 2005. Most of that time the boat spent in Spain then Gibraltar then the previous owner to me had her here in the UK and went a bit mad with updating things which is handy lol. New satphone, sat TV, fancy auto lowering TV but now it is my turn to get set to with the updating
https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1"]https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1"]https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/103897/?searchid=14321408&page=1
This is the 'spec'
Teak interior throughout - lounge: Newly upholstered throughout - New blinds/ curtains - New fitted carpets in lounge/VIP bedroom and master bedroom
POP up Sky TV in Saloon, serves all other rooms
DVD
Music
Galley: Double sink set with Corian surfaces
New hob/oven - Fridge/freezer
Washer\dryer -Dishwasher
Microwave
Cabins
Master en-suite (aft) with double bed - full length mirror in teak frame - Dressing table with seating - plenty of storage space - Hanging lockers
Heads: wash basin set in marble surface, shower and wc hot and cold mixer taps, heated towel rail ,shaver socket, Extractor fan
VIP forward with double bed - full length mirror in teak frame - Dressing table with seating - plenty of storage space - Hanging lockers
Starboard twin cabin with single beds- hanging locker & storage
Deck Equipment:
Teak laid to flybridge - Fender racks - Fenders - Warps - Stainless steel doors - frame-less windows - GRP canopy - ‘L’ shaped aft deck seating seating for 8 - Fitted BBQ unit c/w fridge and sink units plus storage – new.
Aft deck area fitted with new [removable] enclosure covers
Passerelle - Swim platform and swim ladder
Opacmare jib crane for Rib – new - top deck remote handheld control - Heavy duty electric capstans fwd/aft
Stainless steel doors - Bimini
Systems
Engines – 2 x 500shp Yanmars – 560 hours – fully maintained - Thrusters – fwd/stern – 20hp hydraulic units controlled from fly and main helms - Throttles – Micro commander electronic type with remote ‘wandering’ unit - control both Throttles and Thrusters from anywhere on the vessel - Emergency stop control on both shafts programmed into to throttles - Trim tabs - Exhaust overheat alarms - Extra fuel tank midships 90 gals
13.5 Kw Generator with sound sheild - Remote start - Separate battery
Navigation:
E series nav setup, 15” screens linked to Raymarine Radar and Chartplotter/ autohelm. Also linked to rear ‘colour’ camera view and forward looking sonar.
Garmin backup chart plotter
McMurdoch weather station/GPS
GMDS comms
Sat phone - Sat TV – KVH - Trim tab LED indicators - both stations - new -
Chain counter
Remote anchor chain control from both helms
Safety
8 man Liftraft – fully in date- Epirb – in date - Automatic bilge pump - Fire extinguishers (hand held) Fire extinguisher in engine room
She is unusual with a Port helm, which I really like actually, along with the extra seating and the electric high/low table to starboard. She has twin 500Hp Yanmar's and the usual 13.5Kw Generator with just 450 Hrs. Was built in 2002 - December - so close as you like to a 2003 model. Bonded glass, all tinted makes another nice feature, along with the uprated crane and supports to take the Williams 285 Rib on top of the 'sun deck'. She has new fit ZF electric throttles with remote unit that you can control Thrusters and engines from 'anywhere on the boat' and has had a lot of cosmetic improvements too like all new carpets, teak blinds by Ocean Air fitted, new upholstery throughout, new hob, new battery charger, new exhaust pipes - serviced annually come what may with original Yanmar parts including all engine anodes being changed. The only thing that does not work is the stereo.
I recon I have a nice one, the first owner only had her a short time from build to 2005. Most of that time the boat spent in Spain then Gibraltar then the previous owner to me had her here in the UK and went a bit mad with updating things which is handy lol. New satphone, sat TV, fancy auto lowering TV but now it is my turn to get set to with the updating
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Piers
Well-Known Member
Is it not that the engine(s) which drive the PTO needs to be able to develop the HP required to drive both thrusters? If it doesn't, the rpm needs to be increased to where the PTO can deliver the correct HP.
Piers
Well-Known Member
Can someone please explain the benefit of electronic controls to me? They seem to me to be an expense from which only the manufacturer benefits, but with no benefits for the user. In fact, since manufacturers know they fail they kindly install the ability to revert to manual control in case (for when?) they fail.
Explanations, please?
[2068]
...
Electronic controls require much less physical effort to shift gears and adjust throttles.
Think "Airbus" vs "BAC 111".
Piers
Well-Known Member
Yet if cables and hydraulic lines are installed correctly, they are easy to use and far more reliable than electronics. So I come back to the question, 'Why are electronics required - what's the benefit?'
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Re air con , here’s a low Amp marine system .As you infer there can be issues with weak shore power .
This has a 2 amp start and its max ( 42000btu ) is 10 amp ish , In the U.K. you can approximately half that .
But the real main advantage is virtually silent .Under a bunk you can not hear it .
For Med users , this means it can be run all the time without disturbing sleep .Even the air handlers are quiet too .
Unlike self contained units ( which you don,t have ) which rattle and hum away .
You might just need to change the unit and keep the existing air handlers / pumps / plumbing etc .
I think you idea of retro fitting a land based unit on the barging flatform ,is not really viable ,they not “ marine “ spec - it will end up wet / damp eventually.
http://www.frigomar.com/images/PDF/FRIGOMAR_chiller-inverter-DC_eng.pdf
Re - reverse AC and heating , it depends on the ambient sea temp .
It extracts heat from the water so if that temp is low then it will be poor —— like in the U.K.
last week ours ^^^ with a sea temp of 20 odd degrees soon got the interior ( cools at night to 12-15 degrees in the SoF ) to a toasty 20 + inside the boat .
@ Piers — I,am with you re e- throttle s —- “ marine environment “ just another thing to get damp / ver d Gris contacts .
We have Morse controls .
I don’t find it a problem synchronisation in fact In a way a challenge .
I like to be able to reach full rpm in N at the dock too .The other day changed the coolant ,so it was nice to circulate the new stuff and bring the engines up to temp at the dock .
Apart from that —— hmm ?
Sure there’s an inevitability of time and tech catching up but I prefer simplicity on a boat given a choice :encouragement:
Back to the Op .
It’s a well specced boat a nice floating apartment,I say that in a complimentary way for the planned usage .
You have obviously put a lot of thought and planning in this ,congratulations.
You don,t need fins ,indeed they are the last thing you want dangling down as you approach shallow river banks inland “ wild “ camping so to speak .
As others have said take it easy the 1 st year s ownership - spend / upgrade wise - get to know it first then plan what needs changing after you have discovered what you like ,what you don,t like etc .
Just one safety tip .
Get some CO 2 alarms in each cabin space for when you use the geny .
Don,t run it when people are in a cabin ( guess aft ? ) whereby the exhaust is routed under and out — in case it leaks .
Looking fwd to hearing and seeing about your exploits :encouragement:
This has a 2 amp start and its max ( 42000btu ) is 10 amp ish , In the U.K. you can approximately half that .
But the real main advantage is virtually silent .Under a bunk you can not hear it .
For Med users , this means it can be run all the time without disturbing sleep .Even the air handlers are quiet too .
Unlike self contained units ( which you don,t have ) which rattle and hum away .
You might just need to change the unit and keep the existing air handlers / pumps / plumbing etc .
I think you idea of retro fitting a land based unit on the barging flatform ,is not really viable ,they not “ marine “ spec - it will end up wet / damp eventually.
http://www.frigomar.com/images/PDF/FRIGOMAR_chiller-inverter-DC_eng.pdf
Re - reverse AC and heating , it depends on the ambient sea temp .
It extracts heat from the water so if that temp is low then it will be poor —— like in the U.K.
last week ours ^^^ with a sea temp of 20 odd degrees soon got the interior ( cools at night to 12-15 degrees in the SoF ) to a toasty 20 + inside the boat .
@ Piers — I,am with you re e- throttle s —- “ marine environment “ just another thing to get damp / ver d Gris contacts .
We have Morse controls .
I don’t find it a problem synchronisation in fact In a way a challenge .
I like to be able to reach full rpm in N at the dock too .The other day changed the coolant ,so it was nice to circulate the new stuff and bring the engines up to temp at the dock .
Apart from that —— hmm ?
Sure there’s an inevitability of time and tech catching up but I prefer simplicity on a boat given a choice :encouragement:
Back to the Op .
It’s a well specced boat a nice floating apartment,I say that in a complimentary way for the planned usage .
You have obviously put a lot of thought and planning in this ,congratulations.
You don,t need fins ,indeed they are the last thing you want dangling down as you approach shallow river banks inland “ wild “ camping so to speak .
As others have said take it easy the 1 st year s ownership - spend / upgrade wise - get to know it first then plan what needs changing after you have discovered what you like ,what you don,t like etc .
Just one safety tip .
Get some CO 2 alarms in each cabin space for when you use the geny .
Don,t run it when people are in a cabin ( guess aft ? ) whereby the exhaust is routed under and out — in case it leaks .
Looking fwd to hearing and seeing about your exploits :encouragement:
Bouba
Well-Known Member
London, you might also want to think about changing your anodes. Magnesium might be better if she has zincs on her. Nice boat
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jrudge
Well-Known Member
Yes but it should be designed to work at idle as people don't tend to use their thrusters at hi speed. ( our Cat s had a fast idle switch for the purpose that added about 200rpm )
Piers
Well-Known Member
When I enquired about hydraulic thrusters for Play d'eau I was told 'no' because the engines did not deliver enough HP at idle.
petem
Well-Known Member
You can disable the synchronization on my boat just by pressing a button.
Eeeek. That's can't have done it much good? And of course, with EDC there's nothing to prevent you doing the same.
petem
Well-Known Member
Rascal, good to hear that you've completed on the boat. A couple of questions, when was it last used and when are you going to post the video?!
Portofino
Well-Known Member
With my VP , electronic throttle rpm was limited 1500 max in N ( from approx 3700 ish ? )
And you could sync of course .
Point I was making on top of the stuff going wrong in the normal way as it seems with electronic instruments in a marine environment — what s the advantages of auto syncing and a cap of rpm @ the dock ?
Btw I can warm then up @ the dock thus bring them up to correct temps 2000 rpm is enough ( 2200 -wot rated )
Have comprehensive instrumentation and alarms , any issues will flag up .Only do the check service items fitted .
[2068]
...
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Yep that’s what I would have thought too .
For a big pump to power two on a bigger boat one would think the main engines would have enough grunt .
There’s no substitute for cubes .
So a Fleming by its very nature is not a FAST planning boat ,small engines but heavey displacement .
The Sq 65 , engines not big enough .
sq 78 is in hydraulic territory with 2 x C 32 litres .
Buy any how a high idle in N say 800 rpm may be needed if normal 600 or so is insufficient .
Q — is the H pump clutch activated ie dedicated for thrusters / windlass or permanant in the sense it also runs the steering and flap rams ?
I thinking if permanent the idle speed will be adjusted to cope with a bit of extra load .
Any how Vetus do powerful electric thrusters for sub 65 ft boats and I,am sure there are plenty of other s out there for larger .
It’s just a case of calculating the right size in the first place — Mr boat builder - don,t listen to the bean counters
.The prop does not know what is turning it !
