Motorboat Newbie's Change Of Direction

[londonrascal]

Ok. If you're serious (and a lot of people here are, not unreasonably, fairly sceptical about this...) then you *really* should not be putting your negotiating tactics in the public domain. There aren't that many Trader 535's for sale, fewer within about 100m of the Broads, and owners and brokers do read these forums.

Incidentally, I would be astonished if you get any warranty provider to write a policy on a 20 year old motor boat. Let us know how you get on with that.

This is one of the things I dislike about boating, when people buy boats they are never very open about the process least of all how much they paid. It seems somehow taboo. Even people I know personally who have gone through this process will say things like "well, we got a very good price when we sold and our low offer was accepted on the new boat" I've never been one to like that so am not going to be here.

If the owner or broker reads this, or is directed to it by someone, then at least they have also a running commentary on what is going on from me and can see I am being transparent and frank. The thing is, this is a three horse race and only I know which horse will win.

I don't know if I will but I found Boats & Yacht Warranty and it cannot hurt to ask what they may charge and if they would offer cover. If they did, it would be handy so will let you know in due course.

 

[londonrascal]

Just want to say, as someone who's watched a few of your videos in the past, good luck!

11% under asking price doesn't sound particularly low either, unless the boat is a giveaway price. We went in at 40% under on ours, and got it, but of course every vendor is different. Nothing wrong in putting in a low offer, subject to survey and sea trial. If it's been for sale for a long time, then the promise of fast cash is unlikely to be any great incentive to the vendor.

One quick point, you seem to have fallen in love with the boat and seem determined to buy it, come what may. If you do, and it turns out to have serious mechanical issues, that can quickly turn to feelings of hatred and boats can be extremely difficult to shift...

We put in a low offer, got it, got a survey done then had a separate mechanicals survey carried out by a trusted engineer (VolvoPaul of these forums in our case) before parting with the rest of the cash. and, nearly two years on, couldn't be happier with the boat or what we did to try and ensure that that happened.

Incidentally, a 100 mile sea journey is an easy jaunt for a large sea-going boat, provided that surveys/sea trials show no issues so shouldn't be a barrier to you. But, your skippers will be able to advise on that
Re warranties, I did look into this, I can't remember what the cut off point is but it's a long, long way under 20 Years. Basically, it's like all insurance, they're happy to cover it as long as nothing is likely to go wrong on very expensive components that live in a damp, corrosive atmosphere...

Good luck, exciting times,I look forward to following your journey

The prices of these boats are all over the show - I can see why a 2006 model might attract a high premium, but when you have 1999 models not much less hmm I think people live in wishful hope.

I keep a close eye on many Brokers stock and see what brands and models sell well, the boats I am looking at are not exactly hot cookies likely to sell easily. If you own any boat that is reasonably modern and has a planning hull (let’s just say a Princess or Fairline from 2001 onward) your audience is going to be wider and if you happen to have a very well kept example, you will likely find a buyer who is ‘upgrading’ perhaps from an earlier model and sees your boat as a natural progression up the ladder.

Obviously someone only puts their boat up for sale because they do not want to own it anymore – the reason for this is wide and varied, from changes in financial positions, age, problems with the boat, lack of interest you name it but there is always a reason behind the sale. Couple a good reason, a harder to sell boat and a longer period of time on the market with a keen buyer and you’ve got more room for negotiation on price since the last ‘firm offer’ could have come in more than a year previously not just a month or so back.

I know people who have given a hefty bung to a Broker in one part of the country so they provide some insight into previously sold boat prices via a database many Brokers subscribe to, but to me that seems pretty poor show. I could go into some kind of physiological formula where you take age of the boat, time been on market for, reason for sale, type of owner and figure an offer that may be accepted. In my instance I read up on here on posts about people asking others about what offers should be made, so much advice came back but it was so different depending on area, model of boat, year of build and so on. I gave up with reasoning and went for a random method. I took three marbles and each marbles colour represented a percentage – 15%, 11% and 8% - closed eyes, picked blue and that represented 11%. Thus this random act formulated my reasoning for an offer on any of the boats I have my eyes on.

If I fail then I do, the issue then is do I go higher to meet the sellers wishes – or say thank you very much but no thanks, and move on to the second boat and try again? That is a tricky one because that involves emotion. Each of the three boats I have in mind go down in value as to their position in my ‘keenness list’ – this means if I stick to 11% and missed out on boat 1, but this offer was accepted on boat 2 (which costs less than boat 1) my 11% reduction has saved me more naturally.

So far as sea trials go – I’ve done some reading and watched some videos and I am just as confused as to the results as before. Some seem to put great play on comparing like for like boats so far as handling goes, others talk of noise and conditions for your regular crew members/family – do they like it as much as you? Then you have those with compression tests on engines, full load testing and watching what temperatures and RPMs are achieved.

From my point of view I cannot figure out what point I would walk away and say no. I guess that is because I don’t look at this as much of a big deal as some seem to. Same as buying property. What a lot of work this is proving to be dealing with the estate agents – come on just let me see the property. I don’t want to sit in some weird club like atmosphere with mood lighting and pretty ladies offering me sparkling water that Foxtons seems to have turned into while they try and up sell me to another development I have no interest in.

If only buying things was as easy as a Tesla. Choose the car online, configure the build, pay for it and its delivered to you. No dealers, no fuss just like Amazon.

 

[londonrascal]

Just an update: No go with the Warranty (boat too old), can't view the boat this weekend, and am away next, but some progress has been made with a Surveyor so I now know who, and have a good idea of cost. Things are moving along

 

[davidej]

Why does this thread remind me of the one about 50m marina berths in Sweden?

 

[Phildorset]

Why does this thread remind me of the one about 50m marina berths in Sweden?

I don't know... it doesn't seem so to me, this one appears to me to be an open and honest series of questions and comments regarding one chap's pursuit of his ideal boat. To me the other one was hard to believe from the off, but you never know... it's only a matter of budget I guess..?

 

[pks1702]

It is no wonder some folks think this is a troll thread.

You want a large seagoing boat that is going to be moored on the Norfolk Broads but you will also aquire a flat in Norwich and change your job but you are talking of vessel with stabilisers, upgraded Nav Kit and Lithiam battery systems. You have limited sea experience but have friends that have; I dont get why you would want all the upgrades for a vessel that won't be at sea save for occasional forays.

You asked for advice here and as any forum there is a variety of views but it is bad form IMHO to then post on another forum that some of the 'big boys' at another place have roughed you up, you asked for views you got them don't bleat when some folks find your MO hard to understand. As a Social Media Guru surley you get this?

In my view you are looking for a Silver Bullet which is not there, why get a large sea going boat on the Broads with all its restrictions and then spend a futher tidy sum gearing it for a life it will rarley see. Why not continue with your move to an area you clearly like and continue to use a more suitable boat. If a time of life comes along when you can use a vessel for what it was designed go for it then.

I feel with the greatest of respect that you seem to be at a crossroads in your life, are looking to move and reorganise job, home, boat and in my view should take these steps in that order. Sort a job, sort a home and at some stage you are ready sort a new boat but a Trader 535 not moving on the Broads - why?

 

[Piers]

Welcome to Trawler Yachts. We looked at Trawlers including the Trader 535, but ended up choosing a Fleming 55. Smaller inside but it was the looks that held us.

Changing batteries? Don't forget to check the battery charger can be set to charge that battery type. Change nav kit? Don't forget to look at Furuno.

Trader, Fleming. Nordhavn, Selene, Outer Reef - there are many fine trawler make out there

Whatever, you do, I'd really recommend you need stabilisers. Traders need them.

Like others on this post, I don't follow your logic, but if you are set on being led by your heart, be led by your heart. Boating is a continuous learning curve.

 

[Greg2]

You are looking at very big boats for the Norfolk Broads! The rivers are not very wide (e.g. the Chet up to Loddon), and you will have trouble getting to places. You certainly will be restricted as far as head room under the bridges is concerned.

You are trying to buy a big sea-going boat, that is big enough to have stabilisers fitted, yet you are using it on narrow inland waters??

No, I am not going to use the boat on the Norfolk Broads - it will just be moored there.

I already own a boat on the Norfolk Broads and will be keeping that for the sensible river cruising periods, this larger sea boat will be for going to sea in. Since one can choose to go through Mutford Lock or head down to Breydon Water and out through Yarmouth getting to the salty stuff is not so far or hard to do.

I guess that is why I don't just want something some might consider more suitable or smaller. Imagine I were to get a Princess 40 or Broom 38, they would not to my mind be special or different enough to warrant a second boat - I could almost just use a Broom 38 both for coastal and river work so that is why I have been seeking something larger and a bit more luxurious internally.

The only reason I want to have it moored on the Broads is the moorings are far cheaper, it will be near my new home which I want to get in the centre of Norwich and therefore not too far to go to for splitting time between weekends on her attending to things and my current boat. i mean just be great to decide not to head home on a Friday night but head off to the boat instead and it being about 30 minutes away.

Plenty of sizeable sea boats moored on the southern rivers of the Broads. We have been here for years and the rivers Yare and Waveney are large enough to cruise on a fifty+ footer. The New Cut is the only bit you may need to be careful of, particularly if you end up with stabilisers. As you probably know Reedham and Somerleyton bridges are swing bridges so no issues there (apart from them occasionally not working) but St Olaves and Becceles bridges will be a no-go.

 

[londonrascal]

It is no wonder some folks think this is a troll thread.

You want a large seagoing boat that is going to be moored on the Norfolk Broads but you will also aquire a flat in Norwich and change your job but you are talking of vessel with stabilisers, upgraded Nav Kit and Lithiam battery systems. You have limited sea experience but have friends that have; I dont get why you would want all the upgrades for a vessel that won't be at sea save for occasional forays.

I do indeed want a sea boat, and since I always see value in size it became apparent to me that the larger you can get for the same money as a smaller (or newer) boat the better value (to me) this would be. And having spent last weekend in Norwich viewing flats which were oaky, but not a bit like I expected and so much more small and cheaply finished, I wonder now if a house may be a better bet and better value.

Now, I have not mentioned in my previous replies my want for stabilisers – but I have mentioned the Nav Kit upgrades and batteries yes. Why? Well, if it is ok to buy a new home and do the bathroom up and kitchen and thus spending thousands of pounds to impart your own style and taste on the home, why not do the same for a boat? What usually happens though is people buy a boat and other than some new fenders, a canopy and furnishings little gets changed and perhaps that is because to many a boat is just a nice thing to have and they look after it but don’t wish to go to crazy since in the general scheme of life is down the list under family, house and car.

You asked for advice here and as any forum there is a variety of views but it is bad form IMHO to then post on another forum that some of the 'big boys' at another place have roughed you up, you asked for views you got them don't bleat when some folks find your MO hard to understand. As a Social Media Guru surley you get this?

Indeed I do get it, but there has been no ‘roughing up’ going on here I got way more issues over on a BMW Forum than here!

In my view you are looking for a Silver Bullet which is not there, why get a large sea going boat on the Broads with all its restrictions and then spend a futher tidy sum gearing it for a life it will rarley see. Why not continue with your move to an area you clearly like and continue to use a more suitable boat. If a time of life comes along when you can use a vessel for what it was designed go for it then.

To be fair on this score, I did question what I was doing and why only last weekend, but then I remembered all those large sea boats in lines moored at Brudnall, so few going anywhere so I thought well, I cannot be alone in this so why not carry on.

I feel with the greatest of respect that you seem to be at a crossroads in your life, are looking to move and reorganise job, home, boat and in my view should take these steps in that order. Sort a job, sort a home and at some stage you are ready sort a new boat but a Trader 535 not moving on the Broads - why?

To a degree, yes though not sure if I am at a crossroads, more I have spent 38 years going along with what you usually do in life, doing all the right and sensible things and keep trying to make those leaps and improvements, be it in jobs or activities and travel and people and it is incredibly boring to look out to next 30 years ahead of me and the only highlights might be a home, a family and retirement. So I thought to myself time to get off the conveyor and head off to do something else. I have never wanted to be ‘secured’ and this fundamentally goes against what many do and wish for in their lives the idea of marriage and a family makes me very uneasy because the moment that happens you’ve lost so much freedom to do what you want, when you want without any issues. Since I have been talking to people in my office and handed my notice in I see how many would love to give it all up and just begin a fresh somewhere – but to do so would require such upheaval and effect others too it just is and will probably always remain just a wish. I’m doing it.

 

[londonrascal]

Whatever, you do, I'd really recommend you need stabilisers. Traders need them.

Yes, I have read many threads on here about this but I cannot get some 'real meat' into why the need is so great. You see from previous threads I have read, someone will say they are very much needed, another then will say they have traveled x number of miles in x type of sea and felt fine without them.

The fact that so many of these boats do not have them and still are floating tells me that it is not safety critical but comfort related in so far as people don't much like the constant rolling port to starboard hour after hour.

If that really is all it comes down to and it not like the boat will just capsize then I am ok not having them fitted but if anyone wishes to impart their experiences on this score, I'd been keen to learn.

 

[londonrascal]

I have come to the general conclusion that the day I become an owner of one of these boats (or if not a Trader another large sea boat) I feel I will be more happy not just with my new purchase, but to come here and post a 'told you I'd do it' update and then help some get over their anxiety that I am not being serious.

I am going away for a weeks holiday with four boats and 19 chaps doing a bunch of fishing, drinking and taking life easy. Once I am back it is off to look at boats and get things back on track and update matters.

 

[Piers]

Whatever, you do, I'd really recommend you need stabilisers. Traders need them.

Yes, I have read many threads on here about this but I cannot get some 'real meat' into why the need is so great. You see from previous threads I have read, someone will say they are very much needed, another then will say they have traveled x number of miles in x type of sea and felt fine without them.

The fact that so many of these boats do not have them and still are floating tells me that it is not safety critical but comfort related in so far as people don't much like the constant rolling port to starboard hour after hour.

If that really is all it comes down to and it not like the boat will just capsize then I am ok not having them fitted but if anyone wishes to impart their experiences on this score, I'd been keen to learn.

Hi londonrascal. You'll realise when you need them when you are being thrown about as the boat starts to roll. Traders seem to be more prone to rolling that some others.

 

[SP2]

I am going away for a weeks holiday with four boats and 19 chaps doing a bunch of fishing, drinking and taking life easy. Once I am back it is off to look at boats and get things back on track and update matters.

That's the life! You seem prepared to learn because you ask questions and this boating lark is nothing but a learning experience. I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[Nigelpickin]

You seem prepared to learn because you ask questions and this boating lark is nothing but a learning experience.

Not a great deal of point in asking questions if you don’t listen to/accept the answers....
If Richard, (IDAMAY) and Piers advice is that the 535 needs stabalisers, the OP would be wise to take heed - unless of course the boat will just be parked on the Broads....I love the Trader 535 but I wouldn’t want to be on one without fins in any kind of swell.

 

[londonrascal]

I do listen, I and I do try to take some advice but when your heart is set on something it is hard to remove that sort of emotional feeling to something and let your head lead.

Now, none of the Trader 535’s I have seen for sale currently have stabilisers fitted, this makes me wonder how did the previously owners cope? I have been looking online at stabiliser systems, naturally like engines pricing seems impossible and people who speak of them being fitted talk of their great advantages, omitting the costs they spent – but I’ve gather it is in the tens of thousands of pounds.

I am sorry if I seem naive here, but I can only assume (and it is purely assumption) the vast majority of people who own boats don’t like the idea of having to hold on all the time, and would rather do without making a plan on how to go from the Wheelhouse to Galley without crashing into to the table on the way - so such an event is far from someone’s idea of pleasure if the boat is constantly rolling.

I really do not want to go to the expense and time to fit stabilisers so maybe if Traders are such pigs in a beam sea I should look elsewhere for another boat after all?

The problem is if I was in a Trader in a swell what have I got to compare it to? If I owned a Broom 50 I could compare it to that, or if coming from a larger planning boat I might think back to how she handled conditions but then people say semi-displacement is the way to go especially if you are not travelling anywhere too quickly. Me not wanting to travel places too quickly therefore makes planning hull boats not as much of a good idea, and thus which lead mw Trader to begin.

Back in March user @Stillwaters posted on a thread the following:

“Another thing to maybe consider is that although all boats roll in some conditions, especially unstabilised disp and semi disp boats, some roll more easily than others. Of course, this may or may not be a major consideration for you. However, having clocked over 1300 hours in varied conditions in a Trader 42 and having been on an E3 as well as accompanied an E4 on a passage, I can safely say that while the T42 rolls in a beam sea, the Ellings roll even more. To the extent, that the E4 I set out with had to alter course and dog-leg to our mutual destination. Hopefully not a deal breaker for you, just something to bear in mind before taking the leap.”

So he has firsthand experience but he is seemingly satisfied. But then others will say contrary to this. So I can only think that it comes back to comfort and not safety but then how roll is too much roll maybe that is why Traders have the hand holds down the saloon.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

I recall someone on here did a major refit of their new-to-them boat and replaced / renewed the stabilisers, moving the fins forward (I think) in the process. So a PM to that forumite would maybe give you an idea of the costs. I've drawn a blank looking for it. Someone may remember.

A seakeeper gyro stab for that size boat is listed on their website at $70k plus fitting assuming you have room... might be better than fins for a river boat. Also works when stationary.
https://www.seakeeper.com/seakeeper_products/seakeeper-9/

 

[Piers]

I do listen, I and I do try to take some advice but when your heart is set on something it is hard to remove that sort of emotional feeling to something and let your head lead.

Now, none of the Trader 535’s I have seen for sale currently have stabilisers fitted, this makes me wonder how did the previously owners cope? I have been looking online at stabiliser systems, naturally like engines pricing seems impossible and people who speak of them being fitted talk of their great advantages, omitting the costs they spent – but I’ve gather it is in the tens of thousands of pounds.

I am sorry if I seem naive here, but I can only assume (and it is purely assumption) the vast majority of people who own boats don’t like the idea of having to hold on all the time, and would rather do without making a plan on how to go from the Wheelhouse to Galley without crashing into to the table on the way - so such an event is far from someone’s idea of pleasure if the boat is constantly rolling.

I really do not want to go to the expense and time to fit stabilisers so maybe if Traders are such pigs in a beam sea I should look elsewhere for another boat after all?

The problem is if I was in a Trader in a swell what have I got to compare it to? If I owned a Broom 50 I could compare it to that, or if coming from a larger planning boat I might think back to how she handled conditions but then people say semi-displacement is the way to go especially if you are not travelling anywhere too quickly. Me not wanting to travel places too quickly therefore makes planning hull boats not as much of a good idea, and thus which lead mw Trader to begin.

Back in March user @Stillwaters posted on a thread the following:

“Another thing to maybe consider is that although all boats roll in some conditions, especially unstabilised disp and semi disp boats, some roll more easily than others. Of course, this may or may not be a major consideration for you. However, having clocked over 1300 hours in varied conditions in a Trader 42 and having been on an E3 as well as accompanied an E4 on a passage, I can safely say that while the T42 rolls in a beam sea, the Ellings roll even more. To the extent, that the E4 I set out with had to alter course and dog-leg to our mutual destination. Hopefully not a deal breaker for you, just something to bear in mind before taking the leap.”

So he has firsthand experience but he is seemingly satisfied. But then others will say contrary to this. So I can only think that it comes back to comfort and not safety but then how roll is too much roll maybe that is why Traders have the hand holds down the saloon.

Hi again, londonrascal. Methinks it's not worth offering advice based on years and years of experience. Your heart seems to have made you somewhat deaf. So, all that's really left to say, 'have fun.'

 

[sorabain]

Hi londonrascal. You'll realise when you need them when you are being thrown about as the boat starts to roll. Traders seem to be more prone to rolling that some others.

If you were particularly unlucky out in particularly bad seas and got hit by a large breaking wave that would in normal circumstances capsize an unstabilised version of your boat, would a gyro stabiliser give you some additional safety (i.e. it'd take a bigger wave to knock you over)?

Genuinely wondering if a gyro stabiliser is a virtual large keel that might give you some additional safety margins in the very bad stuff (force 8+ not that i'd go looking for it), or if it only works within a certain range of motion and becomes useless after that.

 

[Nigelpickin]

’Now, none of the Trader 535’s I have seen for sale currently have stabilisers fitted, this makes me wonder how did the previously owners cope?’

There’s a reason why none of the boats for sale have the fins; it’s not an indicator that the boats don’t need them, more that all the ones that have them have been sold!

OP, you should not consider the expense of retro fitting the stabalisers, not worth is given the amount of boats that have them fitted, just wait for one to come on to the market.

The 535 is a very heavy boat, with lots of weight in the centreline, and tall to boot - so what you might experience in a single engined, lighter boat, with a lower air draft would not compare to the tower block of a 535.

’Weebles wobble but they don’t fall down’ but have you ever played with one in a bath!

I really do love the Trader though and got very tempted at one point...

 

[londonrascal]

Piers kinda hit the nail on the head:

Hi again, londonrascal. Methinks it's not worth offering advice based on years and years of experience. Your heart seems to have made you somewhat deaf. So, all that's really left to say, 'have fun.'

When I initially posted here, and ever since that first post - form memory I don’t really think I have sought much advice – though a lot has been proffered. I arrived here with a statement of intent.

Introduction to myself, background of what has happened to bring me here, plan for moving forward. Now the pondering and questions may evolve, but the point of the post I guess really is to share the adventure – foolhardy mistakes and all.

Turning to stabilisers, I built camera stabilisers out of old hard disk drives when younger so I know the principle, but the problem is space to put the system in a boat and then the electrical power to spin up the mass. If anything, I prefer a fin based system, and SidePower has a new concept with their Vector Fin system. This seems to need a lot less space, and just has a takeoff pump from engine to supply the hydraulics so one could argue this is a little more failsafe with less moving parts and electrical load.

It won’t do much when you are not moving (like at Anchor) but I doubt there will be too much of that going on with me anyway.

@Sorabain raised the point about taking a particular bad wave, on the wrong day in the wrong sea could cause the boat to capsize without a stabiliser. Worrying reading. I wonder if I may put this out to himself or others than may be experienced in this what other boats could also suffer such in the same type of conditions, (I am just using this as examples) a Broom 50 or Squadron 55 – two other boats I had considered.

This also raises the point that anyone with a Trader without stabilisers is in possible danger should they get caught out in a bad sea, and further more effects prices so having such a system fitted might increase the chance to re-sell later a later date and make an all round safer boat.

I never have heard of the Wibble Wobble toy before, but I guess the point is it has a lot of weight down low, some height and a great deal of movement due to that but also keeps it from falling over.

I have heard in the past how in a boat you want a lot of weight in the centre and low down to keep your centre of gravity there so I thought that was a good thing about the Trader as it has this. Also is a Trader 535 so heavy? I had a google and it comes in around 21,000KG but a Sqaudron 55 is around 21,800KG - so similar size, and breath and weight just about 21 Tonnes.

I'll say this, boat buying sure is not as simple as I thought. No sooner have I got to grips with engine choice , parts costs and on going servicing than now stabilisation systems has been added to the mix.