Motorboat Newbie's Change Of Direction

[markc]

I think the low offer, cash today, is a perfectly fine strategy if the OP is confident in his ability to appraise the boat. I'd certainly do it on a car / boat / house because I know what I'm looking at. OTOH I wouldn't buy an antique, painting, watch, shares etc., because I have no idea on how to appraise them, so would employ a professional.

 

[londonrascal]

It's a bit groucho marx, but I wouldn't buy a boat where the owner accepted my crazy low offer without a sea trial.

If they accept it, it likely means there's something known wrong with it. If they're confident in the condition of the boat they would have no worries about survey/sea trial and that any negotiations would be over minor quibbles cheaper to put right than the low offer.

I think in all honesty it has come down to the point where I have spent five years of looking, planing, wondering and wanting. I have spent countless hours preparing as if it was akin to the arrival of a new baby. Effectively I am going on the basis that someone who has owned the boat previously has been decent, and taken care of things. I could be so very very wrong and naive in this respect.

Frankly, and with all respect to you seasoned motorboat owners and sailors, I just want to get the damn boat sorted and bought. Furthermore, I am convinced that whatever boat of this sort of age will have some issues with it in some areas. You might get one that is fine mechanically but the windows all leak, or one where the headlining has all sagged and needs replacing - just reading through the many threads here with people asking questions shows boats do constantly require something doing on them even if it is not a large mechanical issue.

However, it is small fry when you consider whatever boat I end up owning I won't be able to do much with as I for one am certainly not able to take such a craft out to sea alone - not to mention the fact I have no training. Even if I did have such training and knowledge, It is only me on my tod so this really will become a boat to share with mates - either as me coming along with them, or since one is a former RYA Instructor he and his family could enjoy her and just pay for the fuel (he can also teach me on a one to one basis about seamanship).

Doing things alone reminds me of my other purchase and 'issue': The car. I've got a BMW in the driveway sat there, it gets driven about by a friend once a week to give it a shake down and taken to the local hand car wash so it looks clean and not a mess. This has been going on a few months now for the fact is I can't drive it because I don't yet have a license - conform - me? Not on your nelly but it gives people some entertainment finding out what I've got myself into this week.

I just desperately want the chance to own this class and type of boat and tick it off my list and not end up in my late 50's or 60s' wondering what would have been. I feel fortunate that I can take such risks and if I loose it all not worry a jot, because I won't have anything less than I do currently but will have had the experience. I have no kids, no wife, no mortgage and little responsibilities but I am having an exciting time none the less and simply sharing it with others who care to follow my journey.

 

[jrudge]

This is a bizarre thread to be honest and is difficult to take seriously.

You don't drive a car, have no boating experience, ask questions that you then ignore and send back large opinion pieces saying you will do it anyway. Will the boat be looked after? Just like cars, some will, some wont.

The things you are suggesting - just like your last thread - are simply impractical and will result in something unsalable in my view.

Removing all wiring and replacing with clever stuff. Thats fine, but do you have any concept of just how much wiring is in a modern boat? And how difficult it is to access once the boat is built?

Sure there is CAN bus type technology. Fairline first attempt ( they are a seasoned boat builder) was a disaster on the Squadron 65 and the current generation is still problematic ( my now ex boat had 3 issues over 3 years with it).

There is an assumption on your part that boat builders are daft and you can do better. In some detail yes you can make incremental improvements - indeed most of us on here do just that - but you are challenging wiring, air con, fuel cells and so on and this - if it is real - will only lead to massive expense and most likely disappointment.

Buy a sound boat you like and improve it - don't try and start again. Boats loose enough money anyway without the added complication!

 

[tico]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck?

 

[londonrascal]

This is a bizarre thread to be honest and is difficult to take seriously.

You don't drive a car, have no boating experience, ask questions that you then ignore and send back large opinion pieces saying you will do it anyway. Will the boat be looked after? Just like cars, some will, some wont.

The things you are suggesting - just like your last thread - are simply impractical and will result in something unsalable in my view.

Removing all wiring and replacing with clever stuff. Thats fine, but do you have any concept of just how much wiring is in a modern boat? And how difficult it is to access once the boat is built?

Sure there is CAN bus type technology. Fairline first attempt ( they are a seasoned boat builder) was a disaster on the Squadron 65 and the current generation is still problematic ( my now ex boat had 3 issues over 3 years with it).

There is an assumption on your part that boat builders are daft and you can do better. In some detail yes you can make incremental improvements - indeed most of us on here do just that - but you are challenging wiring, air con, fuel cells and so on and this - if it is real - will only lead to massive expense and most likely disappointment.

Buy a sound boat you like and improve it - don't try and start again. Boats loose enough money anyway without the added complication!


I apologise if this is bizarre sounding, I take on board what people have said, but trust my replies explain my thoughts and reasoning just as well. Perhaps what makes it seem more unusual is the fact I am sharing so much – thoughts, ideology, logic, and personal situation.

So, let’s bring it back on track:

No, I don’t drive a car because I have grown up and live in London and just got used to the taking the Bus and Underground and latterly Uber. But because I am moving to Norwich, this will require me to drive to make it easier to get about once you leave the city.

The boating experience I have began when I was 8 years old and has been all inland waterways – hiring boats and then in the last two years being an owner among 4 others of a river boat also on the Norfolk Broads. It has been working on her from an electrical and mechanical perspective that has taught me a lot about boats systems, costs and given me great insight. It has not taught me how to plot a sea passage mind you.

I do not intend to replace any wiring – jut get rid of the Lead Acid batteries and replace with Lithium ones in a system that is ‘plug and play’ – will work with the current shore power fed charger and Alternator set up. As to updating the navigation gear, well I would not want to browse the Web on a computer that was 14 years old let alone trust navigation to one of similar age. Not to mention the fact it has been in the harsher conditions on a boat, a great deal has happened especially in the last 3 years from the major players in this area so it makes sense to me to update it and indeed would personally feel updating such every decade is a good way about things anyway.

I am sorry if it seems I am saying ‘boat builders are daft’ – no of course there not, but how many times have you been working on something and stopped and thought ‘why on earth did they put that here’ and makes the job harder. I am not trying to re-invent the wheel one bit, but it is a case of looking at something (like batteries) and thinking things have moved on, take that out put this in. Same goes for things like lighting moving it all over to LED.

I just really like a boat, have the money to be able to buy it and might well be blinded with excitement at the cost of sense but since I am taking that gamble, at least give me the opportunity to do it my way and see how it pans out and share here from the first steps, viewing, buying, and ongoing ownership.

 

[londonrascal]

From the horses mouth - whats all going on and why.

 

[sorabain]

I think in all honesty it has come down to the point where I have spent five years of looking, planing, wondering and wanting. I have spent countless hours preparing as if it was akin to the arrival of a new baby...

I just want to get the damn boat sorted and bought.

It seems peculiar to spend five years in preparation, then roll a dice at the last minute for the sake of a survey/sea trial that can be done in a week, assuming you can pay the full asking price for the boat.

I've spent countless hours preparing for a new baby, but I didn't decide at the last minute that i'd have a go at delivering it myself.

 

[sorabain]

It seems peculiar to spend five years in preparation, then roll a dice at the last minute for the sake of a survey/sea trial that can be done in a week, assuming you can pay the full asking price for the boat.

I've spent countless hours preparing for a new baby, but I didn't decide at the last minute that i'd have a go at delivering it myself.

+ i'm in a similar position where i've lurked and looked at various boats for years, had the money and decided to go for it recently, but still undertook survey/sea trial and was very pleasantly surprised at the value for money I got for it. The surveyor and engineer taught me a great deal about that specific type of boat (and boats in general) over the course of the day, picked up things i'd not have known about and are now being sorted for me.

 

[londonrascal]

Ok point taken, less speed and rushing into matters then but another thing to now look into arranging and I have no idea where to begin even - I mean it is not good me just being there as all I could see is the the boat goes forward, turns and goes backwards sort of thing so to do it needs a 'someone in the know' with engines.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Ok point taken, less speed and rushing into matters then but another thing to now look into arranging and I have no idea where to begin even - I mean it is not good me just being there as all I could see is the the boat goes forward, turns and goes backwards sort of thing so to do it needs a 'someone in the know' with engines.

That would be a surveyor.

 

[sorabain]

From the horses mouth - whats all going on and why.

I took away a few things from this:

1. you like Miami Vice. You're in good company there.
2. you have a lot going on: new car, new job, looking for a new flat...
3. you want to do a lot of work on the boat you get.
4. not entirely clear where the boat will be kept "mooring" makes it sound like on a river.

given #2 (lot going on), do you have time for #3 (new boat, redoing the insides).

If you're into Miami Vice, and are new to boats, how about starting a bit smaller? I started with a 6.5m RIB. I did more or less turn up and buy it on the spot without survey (although via a reputable broker who had done work on it and had taken me out for a spin). I almost certainly paid over the odds for it, so keen that I would just pay the asking price, and although it's given me great service over the years there were things wrong with it that a surveyor would have spotted and had sorted (wiring was in a bad state, i've had to have the console wiring redone entirely).

Fortunately I started on a small boat that comes apart relatively easily (re: the console wiring), and paying 10% over the odds means a couple of grand rather than tens of thousands.

I've had enormous fun with it, it's certainly "Miami Vice" with wind through your hair, tight turns, ability to go almost anywhere etc. Now my family has been upgraded with a couple of little new members i've gone for something larger that we can spend more time in (less miami vice, more real housewives of miami)

 

[Phildorset]

I like the video, good on you! There is loads of good advice to be had on here and from many experienced owners (I'm new to this big boat world too - so am not counting myself as one of these). The best advice I can give though & I'm sure about this bit, is to find yourself a great surveyor with experience in the boat brand you're offering on + do the same with engines (and yes, two separate people, your engines are likely to be getting on towards half the value of what you're buying... or half the cost again if they prove to be worn out and knackered.) These chaps will (certainly should) either give you the confidence to continue to buy, save you money by highlighting issues that justify reducing the offer, or show you reasons to withdraw and look again. Buying a boat quickly becomes emotional, try hard not to let your heart and enthusiasm blinker you into a costly situation.

best of luck.
Phil

 

[MrB]

I like the video, good on you! There is loads of good advice to be had on here and from many experienced owners (I'm new to this big boat world too - so am not counting myself as one of these). The best advice I can give though & I'm sure about this bit, is to find yourself a great surveyor with experience in the boat brand you're offering on + do the same with engines (and yes, two separate people, your engines are likely to be getting on towards half the value of what you're buying... or half the cost again if they prove to be worn out and knackered.) These chaps will (certainly should) either give you the confidence to continue to buy, save you money by highlighting issues that justify reducing the offer, or show you reasons to withdraw and look again. Buying a boat quickly becomes emotional, try hard not to let your heart and enthusiasm blinker you into a costly situation.

best of luck.
Phil

Solid advice right there.:encouragement:

 

[londonrascal]

Thanks Phil. Time for me to take a back seat so far as my heart and hand over the reins to my head.

 

[ChrisJBSC]

You are looking at very big boats for the Norfolk Broads! The rivers are not very wide (e.g. the Chet up to Loddon), and you will have trouble getting to places. You certainly will be restricted as far as head room under the bridges is concerned.

You are trying to buy a big sea-going boat, that is big enough to have stabilisers fitted, yet you are using it on narrow inland waters??

 

[londonrascal]

You are looking at very big boats for the Norfolk Broads! The rivers are not very wide (e.g. the Chet up to Loddon), and you will have trouble getting to places. You certainly will be restricted as far as head room under the bridges is concerned.

You are trying to buy a big sea-going boat, that is big enough to have stabilisers fitted, yet you are using it on narrow inland waters??

No, I am not going to use the boat on the Norfolk Broads - it will just be moored there.

I already own a boat on the Norfolk Broads and will be keeping that for the sensible river cruising periods, this larger sea boat will be for going to sea in. Since one can choose to go through Mutford Lock or head down to Breydon Water and out through Yarmouth getting to the salty stuff is not so far or hard to do.

I guess that is why I don't just want something some might consider more suitable or smaller. Imagine I were to get a Princess 40 or Broom 38, they would not to my mind be special or different enough to warrant a second boat - I could almost just use a Broom 38 both for coastal and river work so that is why I have been seeking something larger and a bit more luxurious internally.

The only reason I want to have it moored on the Broads is the moorings are far cheaper, it will be near my new home which I want to get in the centre of Norwich and therefore not too far to go to for splitting time between weekends on her attending to things and my current boat. i mean just be great to decide not to head home on a Friday night but head off to the boat instead and it being about 30 minutes away.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

So in the light of forum advice, what's your latest thinking about the purchase process? Are you still intending to rock up at the weekend, planning to chip the vendor by £100k or whatever, and buy the boat blind on the spot? You've mentioned about needing to get the boat moved from (say) Eastbourne to Norfolk; but you're buying a boat without a survey, and you aren't able to move it yourself - so how are you going to persuade a delivery skipper that it's sound?

I don't think that all purchases need surveys; but in your specific case, it is hard to see any benefit in *not* having a survey and sea trial. There is a slightly perverse logic which someone has already mentioned that if you bid someone in the nuts in return for a blind purchase, if they say yes then it is very likely that the boat is a dog; but if the boat isn't a dog, then they will just hang on for a sensible price (and conventional transaction).

Caveat emptor. PS I do like the Trader 535 though, and a a refit on one of those would be good fun.

 

[londonrascal]

So in the light of forum advice, what's your latest thinking about the purchase process? Are you still intending to rock up at the weekend, planning to chip the vendor by £100k or whatever, and buy the boat blind on the spot? You've mentioned about needing to get the boat moved from (say) Eastbourne to Norfolk; but you're buying a boat without a survey, and you aren't able to move it yourself - so how are you going to persuade a delivery skipper that it's sound?

I don't think that all purchases need surveys; but in your specific case, it is hard to see any benefit in *not* having a survey and sea trial. There is a slightly perverse logic which someone has already mentioned that if you bid someone in the nuts in return for a blind purchase, if they say yes then it is very likely that the boat is a dog; but if the boat isn't a dog, then they will just hang on for a sensible price (and conventional transaction).

Caveat emptor. PS I do like the Trader 535 though, and a a refit on one of those would be good fun.

Latest thinking has actually taken me to discover the contact details of some Surveyors - will make calls tomorrow and find out an estimate of fees, also need to call a warranty company and see what they would charge for an extended warranty on the boat and what may be covered.

So far as my idea of the reduced cash offer and no survey and sea trial goes, the amount I was going to offer was 11% below asking price. So to my mind not an obscenely low offer but one I had set my mind on achieving.

As I said in a previous reply, my plan was to have the boat surveyed - just once I took ownership of her.

Therefore in such instance, those assisting me to get the boat to Norfolk would know what issues (if any) were present. Two of the four recommendations from the 2015 Survey report I have seen I know have been attended to. The other two issues may well have been rectified too and if they have not been (or have got worse in the last two years) my survey would show this up.

As for the getting the boat to Norfolk, I have two friends who have already volunteered. They had put themselves forward when I was originally planning to bring a Squadron 55 back from the Holland before I saw sense and shifted towards Traders located in our own waters. One is a former RYA Instructor who prior to retirement had served for 24 years in the Royal Navy latterly on fast patrol boats giving undergraduate training such as navigational skills and seamanship. Since then he has accrued a vast amount of experience at sea with both sailing and motor boats. It is he I will avail myself of one to one tuition with and, in time and follow the RYA syllabus to achieve a Yachtmaster qualification.

As to the engineering and electrical side of things, another former a Royal Navy friend whose career began on large surface ships as an engineer before moving to Trident and dealing with reactors - I'd imagine a pair of CATs won't phase him too much. Two other experienced motorboat owners will come for the experience. As for me, I will do a lot of filming and pay for the fuel and food and share the footage with people here (there is a very good chance such will be streamed live online as I did from one of the boats in the Queens' Diamond Jubilee Thames Pageant in 2012.)

The reason and only reason why I still like the idea of the survey after purchase is to get the boat bought as soon as possible with the least of delays and achieve (hopefully) a better chance of an 11% reduction in asking price, then spend the savings on the boat with things like umpteen new sea cocks and an a diesel fired hot water heating system, but with the opinions of people here taken into account, It now is likely I will go the usual route - make an offer, hope it is accepted (subject to survey) etc etc.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Ok. If you're serious (and a lot of people here are, not unreasonably, fairly sceptical about this...) then you *really* should not be putting your negotiating tactics in the public domain. There aren't that many Trader 535's for sale, fewer within about 100m of the Broads, and owners and brokers do read these forums.

Incidentally, I would be astonished if you get any warranty provider to write a policy on a 20 year old motor boat. Let us know how you get on with that.

 

[Murv]

Just want to say, as someone who's watched a few of your videos in the past, good luck!

11% under asking price doesn't sound particularly low either, unless the boat is a giveaway price. We went in at 40% under on ours, and got it, but of course every vendor is different.
Nothing wrong in putting in a low offer, subject to survey and sea trial. If it's been for sale for a long time, then the promise of fast cash is unlikely to be any great incentive to the vendor.

One quick point, you seem to have fallen in love with the boat and seem determined to buy it, come what may. If you do, and it turns out to have serious mechanical issues, that can quickly turn to feelings of hatred and boats can be extremely difficult to shift...

We put in a low offer, got it, got a survey done then had a separate mechanicals survey carried out by a trusted engineer (VolvoPaul of these forums in our case) before parting with the rest of the cash. and, nearly two years on, couldn't be happier with the boat or what we did to try and ensure that that happened.

Incidentally, a 100 mile sea journey is an easy jaunt for a large sea-going boat, provided that surveys/sea trials show no issues so shouldn't be a barrier to you. But, your skippers will be able to advise on that
Re warranties, I did look into this, I can't remember what the cut off point is but it's a long, long way under 20 Years. Basically, it's like all insurance, they're happy to cover it as long as nothing is likely to go wrong on very expensive components that live in a damp, corrosive atmosphere...

Good luck, exciting times,I look forward to following your journey