Moisture readings high - should we buy??

[AnnieO]

Can anyone advise us please?? We have had a surveyors report carried out on a 15 year old F27 trimaran we are hoping to buy and the moisture readings have come back 'high' or 'elevated' in his words and we are unsure if this is cause for concern.
Appreciate it's an old boat but readings are -

The surveyor used a TRAMEX SKIPPER meter Scale 1 on a dry day (just last week)
Main hull 0 - 40 above and below waterline
Outriggers 70 - 100 above and below

The boat has been uncovered but out of the water for a year, and there is some water in the outriggers and some in the main hull from rainwater getting in, although bilge dry.

Surveyor says the high readings COULD be caused by moisture in the sandwich core material but no other hull defects apart from delamination inside in a small area. Small blisters are on the port outrigger but he hasn't said why.

The surveyor did a report on the boat 10 years ago and moisture readings in the outriggers were high then virtually the same, but now the hull readings are higher.

Really not sure what to do whether to ask for a core sample to be taken (if so would we arrange/pay or the seller?). Want to just go ahead and buy but 28k is still a lot of money to us and don't want to be regretting it when the bills come in!!
This will be the first 'big' boat we've ever bought so never had to go through this before.
Any help would be appreciated!!

 

[NealB]

First stop would be to ask the surveyor, I'd have thought.

 

[AnnieO]

It's all ifs and buts from him

 

[Concerto]

Definitely talk with your surveyor. He is the expert you have paid for his knowlwedge. On this forum you will find some experts, but too many people with very limited experience of a similar problem, but the only person who has seen the boat is your surveyor.

 

[Muddy Boat]

Just had a quick Google and have found several references for the meter that says that Scale 2 should be used for GRP. Scale 1 is for teak!

Here is linky to document: http://www.passionforpaint.co.uk/downloads/skipperguide.pdf

For pre purchase surveys it says anything up to 18% is acceptable.

Loads on Google about this.

 

[bitbaltic]

Want to just go ahead and buy but 28k is still a lot of money to us and don't want to be regretting it when the bills come in!!
This will be the first 'big' boat we've ever bought so never had to go through this before.

No real comments to make on the moisture readings I agree you need to talk to your surveyor as he's seen the boat. It would be difficult to say much about it without seeing the boat I think (and maybe not even then!). I would be sceptical about any boat that has rainwater getting in in any meaningful quantities (and you say it's getting into all three hulls) except where it's obviously coming down a keel stepped mast which is pretty normal.

However the above quote makes me think that the purchase price might be most of your budget- ie perhaps not much room for further bills? There are always further bills when you buy a secondhand boat, especially if it is your first big boat, so be sure you have a reasonable sum- I'd think around 25% of the purchase price at least- available before you buy.

Also have to remark that a trimaran is an unusual first boat. Nothing wrong with that (before the multihull bods flame me) and you may have loads of experience with them, but it is still unusual.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The boat has to be dry inside, any moisture on the hull through condensation or water in the bilges will be picked up as a high reading on the Skipper. On my own boat I have taken a moisture reading against the cave locker wall in the cockpit, bone dry, then I placed a water bottle hard against the inside wall of the locker and make the measurement again, it goes off scale, same instrument as your surveyor. For a moisture survey to be of any use, all this needs to be taken into account and accurately reported against the position of the readings to demonstrate that the survey reading at that position can not be relied upon.

 

[AnnieO]

Hi, Thanks for all your comments.
We have spoken to the surveyor who's ifs and buts!
This is our first big boat to own ourselves. We are cat sailors ie darts/hobies and have sailed big mono but they're a tad slow after the cats!!

 

[pcatterall]

I did several sets of readings on my yacht prior to and after applying my epoxy coats 4 years ago.
I used the same meter.
I am a land surveyor and took a methodical approach to the survey(s)
I soon realised that there were great differences in the readings. In the end I took readings every square foot.
The variation of the readings was due to variations in the lay up thickness position of the built in fuel and water tanks
and bulkheads.
How many readings did the surveyor take?
I could obtain good correlation between before and after surveys but only by using the same points for successive readings.
There was no discernible difference between readings prior and post epoxy application or after application of primer and antifouling.

 

[Bobc]

Any boat of this age is going to have a damp hull. Especially if it's been sat for a year with water in the hulls.

If it ain't got blisters, then it's probably fine (and it's still probably fine even if it has got blisters).

If it's what you want, then buy it. You can use the argument to get the price down a bit maybe, but don't let it stop you buying the boat, because I can almost guarantee you that every other one will be the same.

 

[pcatterall]

Is the 'sandwich core' an issue ? I understood that there were always concerns with this structure, or is it more normal in multihull?

 

[Poignard]

I think the fact that you're worried enough to post your concerns here provides the answer you're looking for.

Walk away!

 

[Bobc]

Is the 'sandwich core' an issue ? I understood that there were always concerns with this structure, or is it more normal in multihull?

I would expect it to be closed-cell foam in this type and age of boat, which won't soak up water. Weere it the old-fashioned corematt that was used in the 70s and 80s, then maybe a problem.

Assuming it is closed cell foam, the only real worry is delamination, which the surveyor says is ok.

 

[Bobc]

Just looked at the specs and it is a foam sandwich hull, so there's no chance that the foam has soaked-up the moisture.

What with this and the surveyor clearly using the wring setting on his moisture meter, you might want to find another surveyor who actually knows what he's looking at.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Foam sandwich below the waterline was proved to be a building error a long time ago. Are you sure it's foam sandwich above AND below the water?

I appreciate that some might walk away from any boat with a damp interior, but when we bought our latest boat she was dripping wet everywhere inside. Nearly every deck fitting and hatch leaked. We bought her at a knock down price and we did a lot of work and have had twelve years of very happy ownership with many more to come we hope.

The hull on ours was advised as 'damp' with slightly high readings when we bought her. After ten years we had her peeled and dried and epoxied. This was mainly to put Coppercoat on and nothing to do with blisters etc.

If the hull is foam sandwich above and below the waterline I'd be extremely wary. Otherwise have a long chat with your surveyor. You're paying for his/her advice.

 

[jellidreamer]

I Walked away from a boat with osmosis . owner reduced this asking price by 5k. I was then happy if I ever sold the boat I should get what I paid for it.You have to be happy your getting value. If you like the boat ask what his best price is.With the high moisture reading you should get a bargain if not walk away, he will have the same problem selling it to the next person.

 

[ghostlymoron]

I'd point out the incorrect setting of the meter to the surveyor and insist he repeats the readings with it set to grp. He could then give an interpretation of the new results although I wouldn't have much confidence in his opinion.
I suspect the hulls are fine.

 

[Concerto]

I presume the surveyor you used is a member of the Profesional Yacht Designers and Surveyors organisation, http://www.ydsa.co.uk/, and your contract for the survey was their standard form. If so then the surveyor must conform to their Code of Conduct, http://ybdsa.co.uk/documents/YDSA-Code-of-Conduct-2014.pdf.

In all matters relating to a survey, every surveyor will have slightly different opinions and interpretations of what they see and find. They never will give a definitive answer, they are always hedged with the worst case possible. Unfortunately you have to make a decision whether to buy on their comments.

When I had my current boat surveyed, I disagreed with several comments and suggested work. The biggest one was he said the rudder was full of water, but I checked more thoroughly than he did and what he thought was water coming out of the rudder stock was infact water running down the hull and being deflected by the change in hull shape for the rudder stock, to then run down the rudder rather than the hull. The rudder was hammer tested and kept a clear sound, not a deadened sound from a water filled rudder. Also very small area of the top sides showed delamination after an impact damage, but when I ground it away it was only within the thick gel coat and never reached the laminate. By comparison I did find some other things he missed like some static vents had been fitted incorrectly to allow water to pour in.

So use your survey as a negociating tool to get a reduced price and be aware some of the things may not be as bad as you think and some other things may have been missed completely.

 

[Kukri]

I have just bought a boat with high moisture readings below the waterline. The price reduction was around 1/2 of a simple peel and re-do or maybe 1/3 of the hot vac process which my surveyor thinks she she will actually need. Fair enough; I like the boat and will get this done in due course.

 

[Spirit of Glenans]

Just looked at the specs and it is a foam sandwich hull, so there's no chance that the foam has soaked-up the moisture.

What with this and the surveyor clearly using the wring setting on his moisture meter, you might want to find another surveyor who actually knows what he's looking at.

"Wring" is a very apt word, in this context