Adjag
Active Member
Sorry meant 20 years not 29! - though actually the Fulmar probably WAS designed >29 years ago
Modern equivalent of Sigma33?
- Thread starter Adjag
- Start date
TimBennet
Well-Known Member
Well, my suggestion for sailing in stages around the UK would be something with both shallow draft and the ability to dry out upright. With deep draft or fin keel, there's long stretches of coast which would be day runs between identical, soulless marinas. With shoal draft and the ability to dry out, so many more 'characterful' options present themselves for the end of each day. I think it would totally transform the nature of your circumnavigation.
But to have that AND the required sailing ability and price, I would suggest the Parker 31. There are a couple listed for low £40k's and it would be fun enough to sail (deep winged fin when lowered and a hull that was designed to win the old style 3 Peaks Race), easily managed by two, tiller steered and bearable with six for a weekend. Finally the resale of all the Parker boats is really easy - they're always in demand.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Sold the Fulmar when needed time to do other stuff - notably long distance roadie with racing dinghy trailer for son dong the junior and youth circuits.
I got an Élan 36 as it just seemed a great boat - simlarities with Fulmar
- well known UK designer, with track record of fast cruisers which also look after you in bad weather
- fun to sail
- very practical
- solid wood interior (something modern Elans have abandoned)
Differences with Fulmar
- faster
- more modern equipment - notably electronics etc
- more luxurious interior - aft cabin, hot shower etc
- wheel and engine controls on binnacle - easier to manoeuvre
- moulded headlining - no gluing up peeling vinyl ;-)
Élan 333 is of same generation (modern Élan very different, and in my view less attractive), slightly less interior space but poss just as fast due to generous 3/4 rig. We have specifically sought these out as charter boats when overseas, as nicer to sail than typical charter boats. Today was a great example of why we love these boats - out sailing well in just 5 knots wind, when all the under canvassed other boats were struggling to move or motoring.
One point of caution, may have seen 2 boats lost rudders last year - surprising as no previous issues, so worth getting rudder stock checked if went this route (but lots of other boats, including Hanse, have had rare rudder losses, and Jeannea, but not Bavaria, dropped a keel so there can be rare issues with most boat types)
Hope you find what you are looking for.
Boo2
Well-Known Member
I think tiller steering is out of fashion so if you're looking for a later boat then you may have to consider wheel steering.
If I had £40k I'd be looking at the Dehler 34 or MG335. I haven't sailed either so can't comment, but they do get good reviews.
Boo2
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Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
We've just had 5 months away having been to Scotland and back from Portsmouth in our Tradewind 33'.
We had the common restraint of wishing to go on a very small budget. We deemed that our Twister 28 was a little too small for our wants and would need a little money spent on things like heating, a cockpit enclosure (both a real must for being away for months around the U.K. in our opinion).
Before we had made our minds up as to what best to do, a Tradewind came up for sale in our yard.
They are extremely spacious inside, heavy displacement long keelers, built like the proverbial outhouse, with exceptionally good seakeeping qualities, available at a very sensible price although a 35' will set you back at least all of your budget and relative to a Sigma 33 they are very slow. ( EDIT: I see like most used boats the advertised prices are still falling, see.... http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/Tradewind )
One major concern that we had whilst discussing and planning our trip was Mrs S's confidence. That above all had to be maintained.
The Tradewind never let us down and even in very large seas felt safe and relaxing to sail especially using the Monitor windvane on our tiller steering, a piece of kit we transferred from our Twister.
We were able to sail in challenging conditions comfortably when others in lighter racier and often bigger yachts often chose not to.
We had the common restraint of wishing to go on a very small budget. We deemed that our Twister 28 was a little too small for our wants and would need a little money spent on things like heating, a cockpit enclosure (both a real must for being away for months around the U.K. in our opinion).
Before we had made our minds up as to what best to do, a Tradewind came up for sale in our yard.
They are extremely spacious inside, heavy displacement long keelers, built like the proverbial outhouse, with exceptionally good seakeeping qualities, available at a very sensible price although a 35' will set you back at least all of your budget and relative to a Sigma 33 they are very slow. ( EDIT: I see like most used boats the advertised prices are still falling, see.... http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/category/type/Tradewind )
One major concern that we had whilst discussing and planning our trip was Mrs S's confidence. That above all had to be maintained.
The Tradewind never let us down and even in very large seas felt safe and relaxing to sail especially using the Monitor windvane on our tiller steering, a piece of kit we transferred from our Twister.
We were able to sail in challenging conditions comfortably when others in lighter racier and often bigger yachts often chose not to.
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grumpy_o_g
Well-Known Member
There's a Hunter Channel 323 that's been on the market a long while now that meets your criteria I'd say. Good accommodation, good to sail, tiller steered, bilge keels and a self-tacking jib to make short-handed sailing a doddle. Bit over budget but worth an offer. You might want to keep a few grand spare for re-upholstering though!
http://www.boatshed.com/hunter_channel_323-boat-76703.html
There's also a Hunter Channel 32 for a bit under your budget and it's a bit more restrained in the interior.
http://www.boatshed.com/hunter_channel_32-boat-146236.html
http://www.boatshed.com/hunter_channel_323-boat-76703.html
There's also a Hunter Channel 32 for a bit under your budget and it's a bit more restrained in the interior.
http://www.boatshed.com/hunter_channel_32-boat-146236.html
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
In 2012 i did a circumnavigation via cally canal single handed in a Hanse 312. Never had any problem re the 1.800 draft
We have had a fortnight with 6 adults & i would suggest anything less than 35 ft a bit small for 6. It is not only storage but you need a big cockpit. Cruising sailors want to sit in the cockpit, not on the rail or below. If you have sailed a Sigma you will know how restrictive a small cockpit can be
There again buy a Sigma & have 10k to tidy it up
We have had a fortnight with 6 adults & i would suggest anything less than 35 ft a bit small for 6. It is not only storage but you need a big cockpit. Cruising sailors want to sit in the cockpit, not on the rail or below. If you have sailed a Sigma you will know how restrictive a small cockpit can be
There again buy a Sigma & have 10k to tidy it up
Houleaux
Well-Known Member
I'm horribly biased because I own one and love it, but what about a Westerly Storm One Design? Like the Fulmar it's an Ed Dubois design that sails really well, but it has a more modern layout with an aft heads and small aft cabin.
Your budget would get you a good one with cash to spare (never a bad thing!).
There's also a (rarer) bilge keel cruiser version with a cut down rig and larger engine. They tend to fetch more because there were less made and they're popular with those looking for good performance with the option to dry out.
Your budget would get you a good one with cash to spare (never a bad thing!).
There's also a (rarer) bilge keel cruiser version with a cut down rig and larger engine. They tend to fetch more because there were less made and they're popular with those looking for good performance with the option to dry out.
onesea
Well-Known Member
Best suggestion I have seen if you can afford one...
slipknot
Well-Known Member
Beneteau First 33.7
Quandary
Well-Known Member
Five years ago we decided our Sigma 38 was too big for two of us and we decided to downsize to the nearest thing we could find to our former Sigma 33. In the end we chose a Finngulf 33, way over our and the OPs budget but I could find nothing to rival it anywhere at the time (or since) Once we saw it we wanted something as good looking, as well designed and built there was nothing so in the end we spent the kids inheritance. The miracle was that my wife agreed with me. This is our last boat so the decision was important.
However our 'in budget (£50k.) selection' came down to the choice between a Dufour and an X 332 both tiller steered, however the tiller steering/mainsheet arrangement just does not work on the Dufour and it would have been uncontrollable in boisterous weather. we did look at some Maxis and were put off mainly by the unwillingness of sellers to consider what we regarded as fair offers. I was quite attracted to an ex army tiller steered Najad 33 being offered by another forumite and sometimes still consider it as I begin to place less emphasis on performance. I did not find a Jeanneau or Beneteau that seemed to fulfil my performance cruiser needs, they seemed to be either fast twitchy racers or placid cruisers.
A friend bought the X332 and is well pleased with it, he races a lot more than we do and has been successful but it is still easy to change the sails and go cruising in comfort with his family.
My experience is that if you are experienced and search diligently with an open mind you come to a clear conclusion of what you want to own and use and no amount of advice from others has any relevance once you get to that point.
However our 'in budget (£50k.) selection' came down to the choice between a Dufour and an X 332 both tiller steered, however the tiller steering/mainsheet arrangement just does not work on the Dufour and it would have been uncontrollable in boisterous weather. we did look at some Maxis and were put off mainly by the unwillingness of sellers to consider what we regarded as fair offers. I was quite attracted to an ex army tiller steered Najad 33 being offered by another forumite and sometimes still consider it as I begin to place less emphasis on performance. I did not find a Jeanneau or Beneteau that seemed to fulfil my performance cruiser needs, they seemed to be either fast twitchy racers or placid cruisers.
A friend bought the X332 and is well pleased with it, he races a lot more than we do and has been successful but it is still easy to change the sails and go cruising in comfort with his family.
My experience is that if you are experienced and search diligently with an open mind you come to a clear conclusion of what you want to own and use and no amount of advice from others has any relevance once you get to that point.
Bobc
Well-Known Member
I don't know what they cost these day, but if in-budget, I would have thought that a Dehler 36CWS would be an ideal beast.
Fast, well built, comfortable, and the Central Winch System (CWS) make short-handed sailing very easy.
Fast, well built, comfortable, and the Central Winch System (CWS) make short-handed sailing very easy.
ELAiNe333
Active Member
As another ex Fulmar owner who now loves sailing our Elan 333 I would also recommend them.
Your earlier comment on tiller steering is interesting. Having sometinmes struggled or tired quickly with the Fulmar's tiller my better half is able to stand much longer periods of helming with greater ease now we have wheel steering. In fact this revelation on our trial sail was a big factor in her (and therefore our) choice of boat.
Against this you are more exposed to the elements and unable to duck behind a sprayhood when wheel steering.
The Elan will get you to your destination quickly which can make a lot of difference to tiredness. She will get along in light airs saving diesel on a long trip but as any boat benefits from reefing in time. We find her much easier to keep in a straight line going downwind in a blow than the Fulmer was (and the Sigma by reputation)
Deep keeled helps give the performance although but some were made with a shallow draught.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Seems to me there are two different questions here. The first is about a "modern" equivalent of a Sigma 33 to which the answer is probably yes, and several possibilities mentioned. However, given the budget the answer is probably no although there are plausible alternatives - again several mentioned but difficult to get anything significantly newer or better in the price range.
The second question is about choosing a boat for the proposed purpose. Not sure why a boat owned 20 years ago for a different purpose is used as a reference point. Surely better to start by drawing up a set of criteria and then seeing what sort of boats meet these. The OP says he wants to take a leisurely retirement cruise round the UK. Just about any reasonably sized sailing cruiser is fundamentally capable of doing this as is evidenced by the wide range of boats people have done it in. It is after all only a series of relatively short coastal hops unless you are bent on doing it in the shortest time possible. Inevitably more time will be spent stationary in port or anchored than actually at sea. Most passages will be in daylight and of the time at sea a significant proportion will be under motor or motorsailing, probably on autopilot.
So, comfortable passage making in a range of conditions, ease of handling in variable conditions, good handling under power for berthing and anchoring in strange harbours and good accommodation with creature comforts to ease living on board for weeks at a time. Decent galley, good sleeping facilities, probably separate from living facilities, storage, large water and fuel capacity and space for relaxation.
Obviously individuals will have their own balance of criteria, but would suggest that a boat like a Sigma 33 would not score particularly high against the basics. The budget of £40k does limit one to older boats as anything less than 15 years old that would meet the basic criteria is probably out of budget, but there is still a big choice if you are open minded and look at boats against what you want to do with them, rather than against one that you have past experience of.
The second question is about choosing a boat for the proposed purpose. Not sure why a boat owned 20 years ago for a different purpose is used as a reference point. Surely better to start by drawing up a set of criteria and then seeing what sort of boats meet these. The OP says he wants to take a leisurely retirement cruise round the UK. Just about any reasonably sized sailing cruiser is fundamentally capable of doing this as is evidenced by the wide range of boats people have done it in. It is after all only a series of relatively short coastal hops unless you are bent on doing it in the shortest time possible. Inevitably more time will be spent stationary in port or anchored than actually at sea. Most passages will be in daylight and of the time at sea a significant proportion will be under motor or motorsailing, probably on autopilot.
So, comfortable passage making in a range of conditions, ease of handling in variable conditions, good handling under power for berthing and anchoring in strange harbours and good accommodation with creature comforts to ease living on board for weeks at a time. Decent galley, good sleeping facilities, probably separate from living facilities, storage, large water and fuel capacity and space for relaxation.
Obviously individuals will have their own balance of criteria, but would suggest that a boat like a Sigma 33 would not score particularly high against the basics. The budget of £40k does limit one to older boats as anything less than 15 years old that would meet the basic criteria is probably out of budget, but there is still a big choice if you are open minded and look at boats against what you want to do with them, rather than against one that you have past experience of.
E39mad
Well-Known Member
MG 346
X332 (as already mentioned)
Most First by Beneteau
Sunfast 32 (Jeanneau)
X332 (as already mentioned)
Most First by Beneteau
Sunfast 32 (Jeanneau)
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
IIRC the Sigma 33 wasn't really about sailing slowly, they seemed to be pretty much the boat of choice for racers, unlike the 36 which I sailed a bit which was much more comfortable.
Quandary
Well-Known Member
As an ex Sigma owner I think I know where the OP is coming from when he uses the Sigma 33 as a reference, it was well designed to be easy to handle and comfortable to sleep in at sea or in port, comprehensively equipped as standard, with all the necessary sails from spinnakers to storm jib, ground tackle etc which included two anchors, fast for its size, very robust and extremely durable, they went out in weather when most boats stayed in port, this gave massive confidence when you went cruising with the kids and had to head home into a gale.
None of the alternatives today offer quite such a comprehensive package, some are faster, some are more comfortable but not many are as durable and would give one so much confidence when caught out by conditions.
mainsail1
Well-Known Member
I suggest your consider a wheel. Like you, I came from a 'tiller' background but once I moved to a yacht with a wheel I would never go back. No more arm strain, easily locked in any position and so much easier in strong winds. Having said that there are good wheel systems and bad wheel systems - look for rod linkage to the rudder rather than cable.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
How does a wheel compare with a tiller for manouvering in a strange marina
mainsail1
Well-Known Member
Never found a problem with a wheel either forwards or backwards and with a wheel you can put the brake on and let go if you need to fiddle with the stern rope or whatever.