Modern equivalent of Sigma33?

[Tranona]

The pros and cons of wheel vs tiller are well known and there is another to be said for the simplicity of a tiller and the feel for how the boat behaves. However for short handed passage making such as the OP plans little time is spent at the helm so easy handling under autopilot or windvane is perhaps more important.

 

[PeterWright]

Another vote for the Westerly Storm OD

I'm horribly biased because I own one and love it, but what about a Westerly Storm One Design? Like the Fulmar it's an Ed Dubois design that sails really well, but it has a more modern layout with an aft heads and small aft cabin.

Your budget would get you a good one with cash to spare (never a bad thing!).

There's also a (rarer) bilge keel cruiser version with a cut down rig and larger engine. They tend to fetch more because there were less made and they're popular with those looking for good performance with the option to dry out.

… and I’ll spend some time telling you why.

As others have said, a modern equivalent of the Sigma 33 or Westerly Fulmar is not to be had for your declared budget of 40k. You’ll do well to find an X-332 advertised for less than 75k and although you will find Elan 333’s as low as 27k in Croatia, you are likely to find no EU vat paid on her, chartered to death for 13 years, and she will be wheel steered, which doesn’t meet your spec.

There’s actually not a lot wrong with either of the two designs you set as a benchmark, but, for much the same price as a Fulmar, you can buy a Westaerly Storm OD which is faster (look at handicaps on the WOA website) and more comfortable both in the cockpit and down below. In all but a few cases, the Storm is tiller steered (most of the wheel steered ones are retrofit jobs)

The Storm Cruiser is a bilge keel version, which was not able to stand up to the OD’s rig, so they put the rig out of the smaller Tempest in her and compensated for underperformance with a bigger diesel. As others have said, rarity of this model also makes them more expensive – avoid if you want performance. The Westerly Regatta 330 is an updated Storm but, in my view lost out in both comfort and practicality down below, with no improvement in performance - also tends to cost more being newer. Ocean 33, also mentioned by others, will perform better than the Storm, but doesn’t offer the same quality of accomodation.

I don’t believe you need bilge keels for a round Britain. I have been based on the East coast for most of my life where I kept my Storm for 12 years, only to replace her with a 6 foot draft Moody 425 still no problems.

On deck, the Storm is laid out better than either the Sigma33 or Fulmar – very practical 2 up, but plenty of room for a racing crew of 6 in the long cockpit. Down below, you have the luxury of a separate aft cabin and a double fore cabin with en suite washbasin. The two saloon settees make excellent sea berths, with the simple addition of lee cloths (why do so few builders fit them?) and the port one will make up to a double with an infill, but its a tight squeeze if either of you are well built, let alone both!

She was criticised by some yacht journalists for wasting too much space on the galley and chart table, a failure for which we were always grateful when on passage. Navigating and preparing meals under way were always a pleasure compared to a Sig33 or Fulmar (both of which we have sailed a fair bit). Lastly, I came to have a litmus test for practicality of yacht layout on passage: can you access the chart table, the galley and the heads without traipsing your wet oilies through somebody’s sleeping area?

The Storm satisfies this with all 3 facilities accessed directly from the foot of the companionway, as does the Elan 333, which more or less emulates the Storm layout. Neither the Fulmar nor Sigma 33 pass this test (although our Moody 425 does!). The difference this makes to the rate at which the whole accomodation becomes soggy on a heavy weather passage is remarkable.

So what’s wrong with the Storm – it can’t all be perfect, and it isn’t. Well, Ed Dubois drew her with a fractional rig, but Westerly rejected this and had him design a masthead rig instead. Had they stuck with the fractional rig, she would have been closer winded and performed even better. The 18 hp Volvo 2002 is only just big enough to push her into a seaway, particularly as it ages and loses a few of its horses - if you get to re engine her its worth going for 28 hp. The aft cabin bunk is a bit claustrophobic for the one who gets to sleep under the cockpit sole, but no more so than the Sig33 or Fulmar. You do get an opening portlight into the cockpit. She’s a bit light on creature comforts (no pressurised H&C water, only a cool box rather than fridge, no shore power, no heating system) but many on the market will have had these fitted and if they haven’t, it’s not a big deal to put them in. Lastly, Westerly head linings - if not already replaced, they will need it. Don’t worry or struggle – just call Roger Nantais (Google him) who will do a superb job at a price not much more than buying the ready made kits – he travels all over Europe.

This boat meets your spec and budget. An Elan 333 might do, but is wheel steered and not advertised in the UK below 40k (think 60k typical). The Elan’s superior performance is due principally to longer waterline and lighter weight, she is not so solidly built and, after last year’s Triangle, has questions to answer on the detail design of the rudder stock (again, Google for more info)

Hope this helps,

Peter

 

[PeterWright]

Tillers are fine on autopilot

The pros and cons of wheel vs tiller are well known and there is another to be said for the simplicity of a tiller and the feel for how the boat behaves. However for short handed passage making such as the OP plans little time is spent at the helm so easy handling under autopilot or windvane is perhaps more important.

The Storm we had for 12 years made many passages between Harwich and Dartmouth, sometimes just swmbo and me. Trusty George the Raymarine tillerpilot, already old when we bought her, got to hold the stick most of the way, regardless of the weather, and handled it perfectly. The only problem it ever gave was when salt got into the 12V supply plug/socket (once in 12 years!) cleaned up the pins, applied a bit of vaseline and normal service resumed.

Think about it; why should wheel steering work better with an auto pilot than tiller? A wheel generally controls the rudder by a rod drive or cable system which, in the end, drives a tiller or quadrant (= fancy shaped tiller) on the rudder stock. On our Moody 425, the auto pilot operates a motor driven ram which acts directly on the steering quadrant, just like a tiller pilot - far better than the rubber band driving the wheel systems.

That's my tuppence worth!

 

[Grumpybear]

The Storm we had for 12 years made many passages between Harwich and Dartmouth, sometimes just swmbo and me. Trusty George the Raymarine tillerpilot, already old when we bought her, got to hold the stick most of the way, regardless of the weather, and handled it perfectly. The only problem it ever gave was when salt got into the 12V supply plug/socket (once in 12 years!) cleaned up the pins, applied a bit of vaseline and normal service resumed.

Think about it; why should wheel steering work better with an auto pilot than tiller? A wheel generally controls the rudder by a rod drive or cable system which, in the end, drives a tiller or quadrant (= fancy shaped tiller) on the rudder stock. On our Moody 425, the auto pilot operates a motor driven ram which acts directly on the steering quadrant, just like a tiller pilot - far better than the rubber band driving the wheel systems.

That's my tuppence worth!

I have never understood the attraction of rubber band autopilots. Our Autohelm drives direct onto the rudder quadrant like yours, just like the rod driven wheel steering (Whitlock). All the gubbins is in the aft cockpit locker and lazarette, out of the weather but reasonably easily accessed from the cockpit and from the aft cabin.

 

[Tranona]

The Storm we had for 12 years made many passages between Harwich and Dartmouth, sometimes just swmbo and me. Trusty George the Raymarine tillerpilot, already old when we bought her, got to hold the stick most of the way, regardless of the weather, and handled it perfectly. The only problem it ever gave was when salt got into the 12V supply plug/socket (once in 12 years!) cleaned up the pins, applied a bit of vaseline and normal service resumed.

Think about it; why should wheel steering work better with an auto pilot than tiller? A wheel generally controls the rudder by a rod drive or cable system which, in the end, drives a tiller or quadrant (= fancy shaped tiller) on the rudder stock. On our Moody 425, the auto pilot operates a motor driven ram which acts directly on the steering quadrant, just like a tiller pilot - far better than the rubber band driving the wheel systems.

That's my tuppence worth!

Was not suggesting that a tiller steered boat is not suitable for an autopilot, but a wheel steered boat is much more convenient as you just press the button to engage and they can be fine tuned to the boat's characteristics. Arguably not so good with many windvanes unless they are of the auxiliary rudder type such as a Hydrovane. The point is that the perceived benefits of a tiller become less important if most of the passage is under autopilot, and particularly if it is motoring and motorsailing.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Was not suggesting that a tiller steered boat is not suitable for an autopilot, but a wheel steered boat is much more convenient as you just press the button to engage and they can be fine tuned to the boat's characteristics. Arguably not so good with many windvanes unless they are of the auxiliary rudder type such as a Hydrovane. The point is that the perceived benefits of a tiller become less important if most of the passage is under autopilot, and particularly if it is motoring and motorsailing.

I have sailed on tiller steered boats where the autopilot ram was connected to the rudder quadrant rather than the tiller so engaging & controlling the autopilot was pretty much the same as with my wheel steered arrangement.

 

[Rossynant]

We are looking to buy a yacht with the ultimate aim of sailing, slowly, around the UK in our forthcoming early retirement. Our needs/wants are:

-Budget £40k

-Mostly sailed by 2 people, I’m biased towards tiller steering as it’s probably easier to get at the sheets when you’re on your own on deck (?)

I am drawn to the boats I used to sail (Sigma 33, Fulmar, Sadler34) but the world has moved on in the last 30 years and the accommodation (and lower maintenance?) of modern yachts like the First 31.7 or Sunfast 32 is appealing. Any advice anyone?

Think about moderate displacement with strong construction - some newest boats are just to light. That is a good point for racer, but then this will shake everyone, and may cause seasickness more, most important though is the resale, lightly built boat will be regarded as more fatigued later on.

Moderate fin keel is all right, better then the thin deep kind. Less problems with keel mount usually (less concentrated load there), safer in case of grounding, less draft, tracks better. Also rudder on full length skeg, so fully supported below and no lines catching there.

Wheel steering - I like it, but on modern boats the wheel is mostly placed aft. Then what is the reason? Again - this is for racing. Wheel located just at the front of cockpit (placed on coachroof is the best, but not common) with sheets and such behind is good idea and better than tiller. Helmsman gets best view, unobstructed by crew in cocpit, and protection from elements. If steering position aft - then it has no advantage over tiller, IMHO

 

[Tranona]

I have sailed on tiller steered boats where the autopilot ram was connected to the rudder quadrant rather than the tiller so engaging & controlling the autopilot was pretty much the same as with my wheel steered arrangement.

But that would not be the case on the types of boat that we are discussing here. However, once you go above 33 foot or so with modern boats very few have tiller steering so choice is limited if that is an essential requirement. All I am suggestions for is that when the majority of the time the boat is not being hand steered then the usual arguments for tiller are less convincing.

 

[JimC]

I don’t believe you need bilge keels for a round Britain.

True, but I think you will have a more varied and interesting circumnavigation if you have the option of going into harbours and anchorages that dry out. This is certainly true of the section of our coastline that I'm most familiar with: between Milford Haven and the Clyde.

 

[Lucky Duck]

But that would not be the case on the types of boat that we are discussing here. However, once you go above 33 foot or so with modern boats very few have tiller steering so choice is limited if that is an essential requirement. All I am suggestions for is that when the majority of the time the boat is not being hand steered then the usual arguments for tiller are less convincing.

It was on a Maxi 1000 which is mentioned in post #9. IIRC it had originally had the more normal arranagement of the ram connected to the tiller but had been upgraded by the previous owners as some point.

As many modern designs have the sheet winches placed within reach of the helm, my experiance is that there is little to choose between the two when single or short handed.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Tiller pilots have taken boats accross oceans. My st 4000 is attached directly to the tiller.
I tend to use mine in relatively calm seas but on a trip in open water or in a swell or choppy sea of more than approx 10 miles I tend to use the wind vane.
I've used craft with various steering systems. Often they are all ideal in differing conditions.....
A wheel house with wheel steering was great in horrid conditions crossing Biscay for 4nights and days. The main drawback for me was being closed-in too much with side screens etc. which others found preferable.
In the Med' i've found a wheel at the stern of the cockpit under a bimini very good. Great to be in shorts and atthe back of the cockpit in the breeze but in some boats difficult to sail short handed.
During our recent cruise we found the tiller, which comes all the way for'ard for the helmsman to be under the hood, very good at times and a good cockpit layout with a tiller I find good for shorthanded sailing. Stick the tiller end between the legs and all sheets etc. are at hand..

 

[Tranona]

It was on a Maxi 1000 which is mentioned in post #9. IIRC it had originally had the more normal arranagement of the ram connected to the tiller but had been upgraded by the previous owners as some point.

As many modern designs have the sheet winches placed within reach of the helm, my experiance is that there is little to choose between the two when single or short handed.

In cruising mode I find my Bav 37 just as easy to single hand as my old Eventide as it is much more stable and predictable. Only real drawback is the mainsheet on the coachroof, but I have a long tail on the sheet so can take that back to the helm. Not so good short tacking or pushing on in breezy conditions. The wheel and autopilot play a big part in making it possible to manage single handed as of course does furling mainsail and genoa, although it takes the edge off performance. Always some sort of trade off but being able to handle such a large comfortable boat shorthanded is a real bonus for me.