MOB on the ARC Rally

[flaming]

I realise that this thread is an interlectual discussion about electronic MOB gizmos. Very interesting too. However there is a system dealing with MOB prevention.which has been in use for a hundred years or more. It is called a harness. Augmented by guard rails and flotation vests they can be maintained and tested before setting off.

Harness and "gizmos" are not mutually exclusive.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Of course, but as this and other incidents show, it happens, so how to maximise recovery is key.

We don’t know anything about this incident beyond a basic description, so my following comment is not relevant to this case.

If you experience an MOB and you’re a skipper, have you really drilled and trained sufficiently to recover the casualty? Do you understand in detail how to mark an MOB position, manage sails and boat to return to MOB, perform a search pattern and recover an incapacitated MOB?

If you just have a vague idea, or only practised on a Day Skipper course with a bucket and fender, then the probability of success is low.

It is not rocket science to 100% guard against falling overboard. I am not talking about hurricanes. In weather where a recovery is possible it can be made impossible to fall overboard.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Falling overboard can never have a probability of zero.

 

[flaming]

It is not rocket science to 100% guard against falling overboard. I am not talking about hurricanes. In weather where a recovery is possible it can be made impossible to fall overboard.

*nearly impossible.

You can never, ever completely remove that risk. People get tired, especially at night and make mistakes, unclip the wrong tether etc. Shackles on jackstays can come undone.

And this is before you get to the nightmare scenario of being overboard at the end of a tether being dragged along at speed.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Harness and "gizmos" are not mutually exclusive.

I agree, but having both can, by human nature, affect focus on the one that works. Example, skipper sees that the harness has a dodgy attachment point but delays action by consoling himself that he has a gizmo if the fitting does fail.

 

[flaming]

I agree, but having both can, by human nature, affect focus on the one that works. Example, skipper sees that the harness has a dodgy attachment point but delays action by consoling himself that he has a gizmo if the fitting does fail.

I have never met a skipper worthy of the name that delays action on something like a dodgy harness attachment point.

 

[dunedin]

It is not rocket science to 100% guard against falling overboard. I am not talking about hurricanes. In weather where a recovery is possible it can be made impossible to fall overboard.

This is definitely one case where we don’t know the full facts.

Yes good procedures and good equipment can vastly reduce the risk of falling overboard. But offshore races, including RtW and Sydney Hobart, have examples of gear failing in extreme situations. Also, more common, are human errors - something happens, people get distracted and either forget to clip on, or think they are clipped on but not correctly.
There are also people alive today only because of these MOB AIS devices - I think a Clipper Race one was the first?
But they too are not infallible - if the crew is hit by a boom and unconscious, it is unlikely that they could keep the aerial above water as required.

 

[flaming]

But they too are not infallible - if the crew is hit by a boom and unconscious, it is unlikely that they could keep the aerial above water as required.

If you're unconscious and in the water you are in big, big trouble.

 

[dunedin]

If you're unconscious and in the water you are in big, big trouble.

Yes. But in fact I think most recent fatalities on the ARC have been caused by crash gybes and hit by boom and/or mainsheet. If combined with knocked overboard then clearly would be limited chance of a good outcome.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Falling overboard can never have a probability of zero.

I disagree. If the harness is strong and correct in all respects it has 100%,

I have never met a skipper worthy of the name that delays action on something like a dodgy harness attachment point.

Worthy of the name. What about the poor chap in the Southern ocean whose harness carbine capsized and released him to the ocean. Was it a personal harness and not supplied by the Skipper then he is basically not responsible to ensre 100%. I believe most crew supply their own harness. I could be wrong on this but should a skipper be responsible for even private harnesses.

Sorry about my gibbarish. Not easy to answer multiple challenges.

 

[flaming]

I disagree. If the harness is strong and correct in all respects it has 100%,

Worthy of the name. What about the poor chap in the Southern ocean whose harness carbine capsized and released him to the ocean. Was it a personal harness and not supplied by the Skipper.

See you say it has 100%, then quote an incident where it failed...

You cannot just look at the harness and say "this is 100% effective" without considering how the human beings use it, and the mistakes that can be made. The classic one is unclipping the wrong harness. So 2 people on watch, tired at night. One decides to go below and check something. clips their second tether to the point near the hatch ready to move, all good. unclips their other tether from the jackstay. Only they didn't, they accidentally unclipped the other crew's. Wave hits, and the other crew is not clipped on.

And yes, "worthy of the name". Before that incident the skipper had no reason to believe that there was any issue with the harness. Your point was that someone would delay maintaining a safety item like a harness attachment point or a jackstay etc because they also had a gizmo. I would not sail with that someone.

 

[BurnitBlue]

*

See you say it has 100%, then quote an incident where it failed...

You cannot just look at the harness and say "this is 100% effective" without considering how the human beings use it, and the mistakes that can be made. The classic one is unclipping the wrong harness. So 2 people on watch, tired at night. One decides to go below and check something. clips their second tether to the point near the hatch ready to move, all good. unclips their other tether from the jackstay. Only they didn't, they accidentally unclipped the other crew's. Wave hits, and the other crew is not clipped on.

And yes, "worthy of the name". Before that incident the skipper had no reason to believe that there was any issue with the harness. Your point was that someone would delay maintaining a safety item like a harness attachment point or a jackstay etc because they also had a gizmo. I would not sail with that someone.

I cannot argue with your post. My position on 100% is dependant on attention to every detail from harness correctly adjusted (not loose) to the webbing and carbine being strong and maintained plus strong attachment points positioned central where a person wearing a harness can just reach the guard wires not flip over them. If they can flip over them then the system loses 100% to fate.

A 100% harness system is possible. I also never wear a "clipped" on harness when below decks. What's the point. Airline passengers do not fall out of a seviceable aircraft. But folk will do ss folk do and it is up to them. Aim for 100% harness or rely on a gizmo to close the gap.

 

[Stingo]

...
We don’t know anything about this incident beyond a basic description, so my following comment is not relevant to this case.....

And I very much doubt that the full details will be publicly released by either World Cruising or Ocean Breeze until all the legal liabilities have been tidied up.

 

[Laser310]

I don’t think it is surprising that you get good signals from MOB devices that are set off in the cockpit/cabin etc. but what about in the water? These things only work if held clear of the water. As for the GPS fix, did you test any that had been moved a couple of thousand miles since their last test? I’m not doubting your experience, just wondering if we are comparing apples with apples here

I agree.., and did mean to imply that they are a foolproof solution

as i said - they only transmit at 0.5 watt

i think in the waves, they might not be good even at 1 mile in some cases - but that could still be an _enormous_ help.., as if you are searching for something, and are in the correct 1 mile square box.., you still might not find it.

Yes - they need to be clear of the water - but in the normal installation of both devices that I am familiar with.., they mount on the top of the inflated bladder,
and will at least be a little bit clear without the MOB needing to hold it.

perfect? No.., but better than nothing.

Hello,
it was not done in any structured way so prefer not to say (I cannot even remember, actually), it was just a group of friends with a few beacons and support from the local signal station (sémaphore) at a few miles distance. Occurrences:
Signals received from immediately to 4-10 minutes after activation
Signals not received by anyone (ok antenna in the water)
Signals only received by the motherboat AIS and not by other boats at a few hundred meters distance
Signals received by boats and not shore station
Signals received by both boats and shore station.
Also, people were all looking at their screens, but depending on systems: a) beacons could appear as just an additional regular target, b)there could be either be a visual/audio alert or nothing at all, and c) on a couple of other occasions I saw beacons appearing here and there when there was actually no one.
My impression, these Ais mob are very far from having enough reliability, why not wearing one but I would not count too much on it.

Sorry, but this doesn't seem like a great test.

The intent of the device is that the signal is received by the boat the MOB fell off of - not by a distant shore station which then gets relayed over the internet...

Did you look for them on the onboard AIS?

My experience is that the signals are reliably received at 1/2 mile; and I have seen them received at several miles on the ocean with accidental onboard activation. I agree that onboard activation is not the same as in the water activation. It's not perfect, but I'd rather have it than not have it.

One of my ocean crossings was on a ~70ft carbon catamaran. we spent a lot of the nearly 5000nm at 25kts BSP and higher. These boats take a long time to turn around; if you try anything sudden, you could capsize the boat. It's all hands on deck to get the kite down, and it takes time... I still wore the thing. Sure, they might get 5-10 miles away before they turn around, but if they have punched the MOB button, they are going to get within a few feet of that spot, and hopefully within a mile of me.

A satellite based device - a regular PLB - would be pretty useless in that scenario.

If I have one complaint about the devices - like the MOB 1 - a they are now.., it's that the installation onto the PFD for auto activation is very fiddly and could easily be done wrong so that the thing doesn't activate. I have literally installed dozens of them for racing crew I sail with. only one was not a MOB-1, but it was installed in a similar fashion.

If it is done incorrectly, or perhaps if you just get unlucky, several things can happen; 1) the device doesn't activate, 2) the antenna fails to uncoil and deploy, 3) the auto activation cord prevents the PFD from inflating correctly.

what should be done is that the PFD manufacturers, and the MOB device manufacturers get together, and design a simple and foolproof plug and play method of installing a device for auto activation. I'll bet that if you designed an antenna into the PFD, it could be _much_ better than the coiled antenna in the device.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

It is not rocket science to 100% guard against falling overboard. I am not talking about hurricanes. In weather where a recovery is possible it can be made impossible to fall overboard.

I interpret your 100% claim, as probable as it likely will get with current technology, trained and competent people. Which is still not a probability of zero, but complies with the “As Low As Reasonably Practicable”, a universally accepted state that safety systems can be in.

There is a quote from a man called Tod Conklin, who has spent a life time investigating why incidents happen and is well respected in this field.

“Safety is not the absence of events; safety is the presence of defences.”

Someone said to Mr Conklin, “it’s not rocket science!” He responded by stating that indeed it was not, it was much harder than rocket science, it is psychology and why human factors result in weak defences.

Conklin | HOP Hub

In principle I agree with your sentiment, however, humans are very fallible as has been proven time and time again.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I do be leave there is a way to automatic MOB recovery up to a point.

EPIRB's do have an automatic release based on the boat sinking so it would be possible to release a Danbuoy using a signal from a MOD detection devise Like the MOBi or the device I got from our own Angus Mc Doon.

An automatic release of a lifebuoy with a floating line attached to the boat could be deployed using the same signal.

An alarm to alerts the crew would get the crew into action.

The same signal could also be used to either stop the engine and/or to put the helm over to turn the boat into a circling sailing pattern to attempt to return to where the MOD happened,

My Crew saver also shows the GPS position of where the signal was lost to aid searching.

You still need crew to find the MOB and to get him/her back on board but could get the finding of the MOB in action soonest that would save time in the crew getting into action.

There need to have some refining so and constructive input would be welcome

 

[Laser310]

The same signal could also be used to either stop the engine and/or to put the helm over to turn the boat into a circling sailing pattern to attempt to return to where the MOD happened,

The first rule in dealing with an emergency at sea is not to do anything that makes the situation worse.

Any large automated change in steering can do a lot of trouble.

This is especially true on powerful fast boats like the one in this incident, or the catamaran i described above. The loads on these boats are almost unimaginable to those who haven't sailed them. nearly any line can kill you, or take a limb at the least. Everything needs to be done in a careful and controlled manner with full crew communication.

I probably wouldn't tie auto release of a trackable MOB device to AIS or DSC distress signals.

Rather, it could be activated by pushing one of the the MOB buttons at the helm. Race boats are mostly required to have these now, and they don't have to be limited to the helm position. It might be a good thing if more cruising boats had them.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

@rogerthebodger
Day time fluorescent dye markers are available and are quite spectacular when used. For night time FLIR cameras could be considered essential. FLIR also works in day light. Costs are coming down. For MOB recovery Lifesavers attached to lifejackets are a simple way to get a lifting point upto the deck level.