Missing yachtswoman in South west.

[[23929]]

Did she have a "refresher"?

From the BBC web site... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-19944635
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She was advised by the sellers Falmouth Yacht Brokers not to make the trip on her own.

Jayne Hobkirk, of Falmouth Yacht Brokers, said Mrs Unwin had appeared on Thursday with her husband and paid for the boat with a banker's draft.

"She said she had a captain's ticket, but it sounded like she hadn't done any sailing for many years," she said.

"I told her to get a refresher course, but that would normally take some days."

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Looks like they just pitched up and bought the yacht without any proper inspection.

 

[maby]

In many respects a yacht is much easier, with a warship every thing takes time, so you really have to make sure the orders are given at the right time and think well in advance, yachts are far more responsive and there is no dead time between you telling yourself to put the helm over till it actually happens

True - and as that Italian captain has proved so well, even large motor vessels get into trouble, but the two require very different skill sets. A warship has multiple engines and, even in the event of significant systems failures, has the power to fight any conditions you are likely to encounter round the UK coast. A 31 foot yacht has a single low powered engine and a few square metres of canvas. Being fully qualified to command the Ark Royal does not necessarily mean that you are safe to take a small, elderly Moody round Lands End. Actually, the Ark Royal's chief engineer would probably be a safer bet.

 

[jimi]

My criticism of her is something that is not in dispute - she set out on a 20+ hour passage single handed. When did you last attempt a 20 hour watch? And how old are you? I'm a fair bit younger than her and an eight hour watch in even quite moderate conditions is seriously hard work! Of course you don't "plan on hitting the shore" - but would you trust a very basic tiller pilot, not linked to any form of chart plotter to keep you off the shore while you had a sleep? She could have been a very experienced sailor - trying to do a 20+ hour coastal hop like that single handed in a lightly equipped yacht would still be risky. On her own, she had no safety margin in a boat that was still largely unproven - any mechanical failure within a few miles of that coast would have put her in significant danger.

Hmmm ... something is far wrong here, on a sailing forum the spirit of adventure is slagged off? People regularly do 20 hour+ sleepless watches in my sailing world and its part of the sport. As far as mechanical failure goes , we all risk it, it is a sailing yacht after all and there are options to sail to safety (even if it meant heading for Milford Haven) , I presume you would have stopped Chay Blyth setting off in his Westerly or police every port entrance to ensure proper experience and a passage plan?

Lets face it, this is a tragic event, but the spirit of it was laudable and the circumstances justifiable.

 

[Kukri]

So we have a range of possible events that could cause catastrophic damage of the type indicated by the wreckage found: Being pounded on rocks by the swell, Being run down by a ship - and probably hit by its prop as well to smash it that much or a gas explosion. The causes of any of those events are too numerous to speculate on.

I have to say though that, subject to a thorough check of the boat, I would have done that passage on that forecast.

+1. So would I. We don't of course know if the owner was on board when the damage occurred.

 

[prv]

When did you last attempt a 20 hour watch?

Coming back from Cherbourg last year. Not single-handed, but my crew wasn't experienced enough to leave her on watch while I slept.

(Original plan was to stop in Bembridge after about 16 hours, but the same crew had social plans the following day, and I felt reasonably fresh still so we carried on.)

Pete

 

[maby]

+1. Sadly that is the nature of internet fora. They end up fool of a whole lot of inaccuracies.The broker recommended last week that the missing lady should do a refresher... I haven't seen anywhere that she did so - but others on here have stated that she did.

EDIT: I could be wrong, we all could, but let's not allow the facts to spoil a thread!

Threads like this also tend to drift off into generalities - not necessarily inappropriately. We don't know exactly what happened to her, but we do know enough to pose some hypothetical questions. How safe is it to make the sort of passage she attempted? What is necessary to make it safer?

 

[Wandering Star]

My criticism of her is something that is not in dispute - she set out on a 20+ hour passage single handed. When did you last attempt a 20 hour watch? And how old are you? I'm a fair bit younger than her and an eight hour watch in even quite moderate conditions is seriously hard work! Of course you don't "plan on hitting the shore" - but would you trust a very basic tiller pilot, not linked to any form of chart plotter to keep you off the shore while you had a sleep? She could have been a very experienced sailor - trying to do a 20+ hour coastal hop like that single handed in a lightly equipped yacht would still be risky. On her own, she had no safety margin in a boat that was still largely unproven - any mechanical failure within a few miles of that coast would have put her in significant danger.

I don't know how much sailing experience you have but I have OFTEN kept a 20 hour watch and longer! I'm the same age (65) as the lady and i'd have been no more than a bit tired and ready for a break - but still with ample stamina in reserve! I'd imagine her naval background (sailing or not) would prepare her for long watches.

Cheers, Brian.

 

[Kukri]

My criticism of her is something that is not in dispute - she set out on a 20+ hour passage single handed. When did you last attempt a 20 hour watch? And how old are you? I'm a fair bit younger than her and an eight hour watch in even quite moderate conditions is seriously hard work! Of course you don't "plan on hitting the shore" - but would you trust a very basic tiller pilot, not linked to any form of chart plotter to keep you off the shore while you had a sleep? She could have been a very experienced sailor - trying to do a 20+ hour coastal hop like that single handed in a lightly equipped yacht would still be risky. On her own, she had no safety margin in a boat that was still largely unproven - any mechanical failure within a few miles of that coast would have put her in significant danger.

I don't find a 20 hour singlehanded passage at all unusual. A pop across to Ostend, for me.

 

[prv]

Being fully qualified to command the Ark Royal does not necessarily mean that you are safe to take a small, elderly Moody round Lands End.

Where does anyone get the idea she was a Royal Navy deck officer? If nothing else, given her age and hence the dates she probably served, were women even allowed on ships at the time?

All three services do sail training in yachts as a form of leadership and teamwork development, and if she was in the Navy it's far more likely that she did this than ever had command of a warship.

Pete

 

[maby]

Hmmm ... something is far wrong here, on a sailing forum the spirit of adventure is slagged off? People regularly do 20 hour+ sleepless watches in my sailing world and its part of the sport. As far as mechanical failure goes , we all risk it, it is a sailing yacht after all and there are options to sail to safety (even if it meant heading for Milford Haven) , I presume you would have stopped Chay Blyth setting off in his Westerly or police every port entrance to ensure proper experience and a passage plan?

Lets face it, this is a tragic event, but the spirit of it was laudable and the circumstances justifiable.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

My criticism of her is something that is not in dispute - she set out on a 20+ hour passage single handed. When did you last attempt a 20 hour watch? And how old are you? I'm a fair bit younger than her and an eight hour watch in even quite moderate conditions is seriously hard work! Of course you don't "plan on hitting the shore" - but would you trust a very basic tiller pilot, not linked to any form of chart plotter to keep you off the shore while you had a sleep? She could have been a very experienced sailor - trying to do a 20+ hour coastal hop like that single handed in a lightly equipped yacht would still be risky. On her own, she had no safety margin in a boat that was still largely unproven - any mechanical failure within a few miles of that coast would have put her in significant danger.

I have to point out that from my knowledge of my own Moody 31, I wouldn't trust a tiller-pilot under sail anyway. The helm can be quite heavy when close-hauled, so the tiller-pilot would be drawing a lot of current most of the time. I once had an incident when a gust caused the tiller-pilot to put enough strain on the tiller-attachment to rip out the screws holding the attachment to the tiller! And that was in quite benign conditions.

Furthermore, unless the tiller-pilot was set up for it, I doubt it would keep a good course; the boat would probably sag off to leeward quite a lot. I've got an ST2000, which I would regard as the minimum for a Moody 31. However, Capricious came with a lighter (non-functioning) tiller-pilot which I replaced. It is linked to the chart plotter, though I don't think this is relevant; I rarely use it with the chart plotter but usually set a compass course. The chart-plotter is useful to ensure what the COG and Heading are, and whether they point at anything dangerous - but it merely makes quick and convenient what you can do with a paper chart.

If someone will post a link to photos of the wreckage, I'll match them against my own boat.

We don't know what has gone wrong, though, and we should not speculate beyond our knowledge. It looks like the outcome will be tragic, and placing blame on people is not helpful at this point. Our thoughts and prayers should be with the friends and family of those directly involved, rather than looking for speculative reasons that inevitably (at this stage) end up looking like casting blame.

 

[jimi]

What I'd like to know is Maby's sailing experience. From the tone of his remarks it sounds pretty theoritical classromm stuff. Maby can you comment on your experience so we can make a better judgement on how seriously to take you as you have no details under your profile!

 

[RupertW]

Hmmm ... something is far wrong here, on a sailing forum the spirit of adventure is slagged off? People regularly do 20 hour+ sleepless watches in my sailing world and its part of the sport. As far as mechanical failure goes , we all risk it, it is a sailing yacht after all and there are options to sail to safety (even if it meant heading for Milford Haven) , I presume you would have stopped Chay Blyth setting off in his Westerly or police every port entrance to ensure proper experience and a passage plan?

Lets face it, this is a tragic event, but the spirit of it was laudable and the circumstances justifiable.

+1

Any other attitude risks getting us towards the ludicrous posts about rocky coastlines being inherently dangerous, a chartplotter being vital to safe singlehanding, and 65 too old to sail long distances.

And thanks for trying to keep the thread to the facts we know

 

[prv]

after 20 hours at sea at the helm on your own, you would be more than "a bit tired"
and i doubt very much you would have "ample stamina in reserve"

In the nicest possible way, what do you know about it?

Pete

 

[maby]

What I'd like to know is Maby's sailing experience. From the tone of his remarks it sounds pretty theoritical classromm stuff. Maby can you comment on your experience so we can make a better judgement on how seriously to take you as you have no details under your profile!

My sailing experience in yachts is not great - just a few years. A lot longer in dinghies. I've done 50 mile coastal passages effectively single handed because my crew was too seasick to assist and I would not like to do longer.

When all is said and done, I guess this is a reflection of two different faces of sailing - some want to push themselves to their limits to prove they can do it and others want to get safely from A to B in order to enjoy a few days in B rather than A. I am definitely in the second category!

 

[lustyd]

+1

Any other attitude risks getting us towards the ludicrous posts about rocky coastlines being inherently dangerous, a chartplotter being vital to safe singlehanding, and 65 too old to sail long distances.

And thanks for trying to keep the thread to the facts we know

+1 to both of these!!

 

[lustyd]

I have to point out that from my knowledge of my own Moody 31, I wouldn't trust a tiller-pilot under sail anyway. The helm can be quite heavy when close-hauled, so the tiller-pilot would be drawing a lot of current most of the time. I once had an incident when a gust caused the tiller-pilot to put enough strain on the tiller-attachment to rip out the screws holding the attachment to the tiller! And that was in quite benign conditions.

Furthermore, unless the tiller-pilot was set up for it, I doubt it would keep a good course; the boat would probably sag off to leeward quite a lot. I've got an ST2000, which I would regard as the minimum for a Moody 31. However, Capricious came with a lighter (non-functioning) tiller-pilot which I replaced. It is linked to the chart plotter, though I don't think this is relevant; I rarely use it with the chart plotter but usually set a compass course. The chart-plotter is useful to ensure what the COG and Heading are, and whether they point at anything dangerous - but it merely makes quick and convenient what you can do with a paper chart.

Sorry, but I read this as you not knowing how to balance your sail plan and not having fitted your TP properly rather than it being a problem with the boat. I've used TPs on several boats under sail and they have been fine for periods of hours to days. I don't mean this as an insult to you, but at the very least it highlights the problem with discussions on the internet!

 

[lustyd]

My sailing experience in yachts is not great - just a few years. A lot longer in dinghies. I've done 50 mile coastal passages effectively single handed because my crew was too seasick to assist and I would not like to do longer.

When all is said and done, I guess this is a reflection of two different faces of sailing - some want to push themselves to their limits to prove they can do it and others want to get safely from A to B in order to enjoy a few days in B rather than A. I am definitely in the second category!

That is fair enough, and for you to go to sea in those conditions may not be a good idea, but please don't use that as a reason why the lady shouldn't have.

 

[chris46]

In the nicest possible way, what do you know about it?

Pete

in the nicest possible way, its called common sense, smart arse .

 

[Wandering Star]

after 20 hours at sea at the helm on your own, you would be more than "a bit tired"
and i doubt very much you would have "ample stamina in reserve"

No I wouldn't and yes I would have!

Cheers, Brian.