Missing yachtswoman in South west.

[franksingleton]

I suppose that most of us really think, “That might have been me” We can all think of accidents in recent years, some fatal, when even experienced sailors do something that, in hindsight, seems irrational. When more is known we will be able to judge for ourselves whether this was an unavoidable tragedy or foolhardiness.

In the meanwhile, it is best to treat reports in the media with a big pinch of salt. Few journos have any real knowledge of sailing, boats, weather or much else to do with the sea...

 

[lustyd]

in the nicest possible way, its called common sense, smart arse .

No, it's not common sense to contradict someones own personal experience with guesswork. Brian said (twice now) that he would not be tired and would be able to carry on longer and you said he was wrong. Pete asked how you would know how Brian felt, the only possible explanation being that you had some kind of monitoring device on Brian since he already said he was alone so you would not have been present.

 

[prv]

in the nicest possible way, its called common sense, smart arse .

And yet several people's experience seems to differ from your conjecture.

Sailing a boat is not like driving a car. You don't need to concentrate hard on the stretch of sea ahead of you, making continual split-second judgements. In nice weather, you can go and sit on the foredeck and read a book if you want to, provided you look round the horizon each time you turn a page. You can make a cup of tea, have something to eat, move around, go to the loo. In reasonable weather, which it seems to have been, cruising sailing just isn't a particularly tiring activity.

Pete

 

[maby]

That is fair enough, and for you to go to sea in those conditions may not be a good idea, but please don't use that as a reason why the lady shouldn't have.

I would have no doubt of my ability to safely make the passage she attempted - but I would only attempt it with a crew. I know that eight hours at the helm will leave me too tired to be sailing safely and I would not want to trust an autopilot to steer the boat unattended for any length of time a few miles from any shore. I know enough about marine diesels to stand a fair chance of fixing one, but once again there's a world of difference between doing that while a crew member is helming under sail and struggling to get the damn thing going again as you are being blown onto a lee shore with the helm lashed.

Once you've gained the confidence to sleep without anyone at the helm, single handing in open water is pretty safe. Single handing in busy waters or close to the shore on passages that are too long to complete without sleep is a different matter. Admittedly, all of this discussion appears to be of limited relevance in the case in question since she seems to have got into trouble within a few hours of setting out - though she may well have already been awake for twelve hours or more before she set out.

 

[prv]

Pete asked how you would know how Brian felt, the only possible explanation being that you had some kind of monitoring device on Brian since he already said he was alone so you would not have been present.

While that's certainly valid, my point was more that Chris has zero experience of sailing (he posted here asking how to get some) and hence it seems remarkably presumptuous to contradict the stated experience of multiple sailors based on, erm, nothing very much.

I did wonder if he was going to respond to my post saying he was an academic researcher in sleep studies or something, which might have been given his opinion some weight. But no, it's just "common sense".

Pete

 

[lustyd]

I would have no doubt of my ability to safely make the passage she attempted - but I would only attempt it with a crew. I know that eight hours at the helm will leave me too tired to be sailing safely and I would not want to trust an autopilot to steer the boat unattended for any length of time a few miles from any shore. I know enough about marine diesels to stand a fair chance of fixing one, but once again there's a world of difference between doing that while a crew member is helming under sail and struggling to get the damn thing going again as you are being blown onto a lee shore with the helm lashed.

Once you've gained the confidence to sleep without anyone at the helm, single handing in open water is pretty safe. Single handing in busy waters or close to the shore on passages that are too long to complete without sleep is a different matter. Admittedly, all of this discussion appears to be of limited relevance in the case in question since she seems to have got into trouble within a few hours of setting out - though she may well have already been awake for twelve hours or more before she set out.

Again though, you're assuming she would have been tired when many people here have said they would be fine with it.
You're assuming an auto pilot would be necessary - I personally would steer by hand until I was on the north coast due to the complexity of that stretch.
You're assuming an engine is necessary - on a sailing yacht the engine is auxiliary in case the wind dies to nothing or the sails all rip.

 

[Kukri]

Twenty hours at the helm would wear anyone out; twenty hours with some of that time spent sitting in a nice warm, dry, saloon popping your head out every fifteen minutes is a whole different thing.

ETA: Funnily enough the thing that bugs me when singlehanded is using the heads; it is not logical but mentally there is a difference between knowing that I can be on deck in a flash if I hear something different to the usual noises and the thought of being "caught with my Musto salopettes down"!

Oh, the 15 minutes: That's a mile and a bit for me and six miles for the 24 knot containership or ferry...

 

[lustyd]

While that's certainly valid, my point was more that Chris has zero experience of sailing (he posted here asking how to get some) and hence it seems remarkably presumptuous to contradict the stated experience of multiple sailors based on, erm, nothing very much.

I did wonder if he was going to respond to my post saying he was an academic researcher in sleep studies or something, which might have been given his opinion some weight. But no, it's just "common sense".

Pete

Sorry didn't mean to misquote you, just found it baffling that someone would question anothers experiences

 

[lustyd]

Twenty hours at the helm would wear anyone out; twenty hours with some of that time spent sitting in a nice warm, dry, saloon popping your head out every fifteen minutes is a whole different thing.

LMFAO several people have posted that they regularly do this and are fine with it. Why are you stating the opposite as fact?

 

[AntarcticPilot]

In the nicest possible way, what do you know about it?

Pete

Agree. We all have different reactions to fatigue and loss of sleep. I can stay awake for 20+ hours without much problem, my wife can't. She can get up in the morning; I can't! And age is irrelevant; I am stronger and fitter now (60) than I was 5 years ago. I'm also a stone lighter!

 

[Kukri]

LMFAO several people have posted that they regularly do this and are fine with it. Why are you stating the opposite as fact?

On the basis of forty years of experience, dear boy.

ETA: I am pretty sure that the other people who do 20+ hour singlehanded trips do them the way that I have just described. It is of course possible for the young and fit to do 20 hours at the helm; Uffa Fox took a sliding seat canoe across the Channel to Brittany... not all of us are Uffas...

 

[lustyd]

On the basis of forty years of experience, dear boy.

All of your experience was in the same body though, dear boy...

 

[chris46]

Agree. We all have different reactions to fatigue and loss of sleep. I can stay awake for 20+ hours without much problem, my wife can't. She can get up in the morning; I can't! And age is irrelevant; I am stronger and fitter now (60) than I was 5 years ago. I'm also a stone lighter!

could you do a 20 hour stint at the helm of a 30 foot boat at sea,without a break and probably very little to eat ,mental fatigue etc etc and at the end of it just feel " a bit tired "
and have "plenty of stamina in reserve"
i found those claims to be slightly exaggerated and maybe i am being very cynical.

 

[Kukri]

All of your experience was in the same body though, dear boy...

True, O King.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Sorry, but I read this as you not knowing how to balance your sail plan and not having fitted your TP properly rather than it being a problem with the boat. I've used TPs on several boats under sail and they have been fine for periods of hours to days. I don't mean this as an insult to you, but at the very least it highlights the problem with discussions on the internet!

No, it's because the underwater shape of the Moody means that when heeled the flow of water is such that the tiller loads up. She is quite well-balanced (she will steer herself for a minute or so) until she heels beyond a certain point, whereupon the tiller loads up steadily. The answer is very simple; reef early so you sail upright. You don't lose speed, and she is much lighter on the helm. But as she wasn't designed to be single-handed, the layout of the reefing lines and halliards on the main make it awkward to reef the main single-handed. Given the layout of the sprayhood and clutches etc. it would be difficult to alter.

Counter-inuitively, reefing the jib will reduce the load on the tiller by reducing the heel; if the problem was lack of balance then it would have the opposite effect. It isn't the optimum solution, but it works, and single-handed is the easiest solution.

 

[jimi]

could you do a 20 hour stint at the helm of a 30 foot boat at sea,without a break and probably very little to eat ,mental fatigue etc etc and at the end of it just feel " a bit tired "
and have "plenty of stamina in reserve"
i found those claims to be slightly exaggerated and maybe i am being very cynical.

I've sailed with Brian, and can verify his claim. He is by no means exceptional , though, just an elderly unfit chap like the rest of us!

 

[lustyd]

No, it's because the underwater shape of the Moody means that when heeled the flow of water is such that the tiller loads up. She is quite well-balanced (she will steer herself for a minute or so) until she heels beyond a certain point, whereupon the tiller loads up steadily. The answer is very simple; reef early so you sail upright. You don't lose speed, and she is much lighter on the helm. But as she wasn't designed to be single-handed, the layout of the reefing lines and halliards on the main make it awkward to reef the main single-handed. Given the layout of the sprayhood and clutches etc. it would be difficult to alter.

Counter-inuitively, reefing the jib will reduce the load on the tiller by reducing the heel; if the problem was lack of balance then it would have the opposite effect. It isn't the optimum solution, but it works, and single-handed is the easiest solution.

Thanks for taking the time to explain

 

[chris46]

LMFAO several people have posted that they regularly do this and are fine with it. Why are you stating the opposite as fact?

you see ,you are now misrepresenting what has been said to furthur you argument,we did not say it was "a fact" that he definately could not do what he said,i was doubting that he would feel only " a bit tired " after 20 hours at sea at the helm on his own .
also i was doubting that after said 20 hours he would have "plenty of stamina left"

 

[lustyd]

you see ,you are now misrepresenting what has been said to furthur you argument,we did not say it was "a fact" that he definately could not do what he said,i was doubting that he would feel only " a bit tired " after 20 hours at sea at the helm on his own .
also i was doubting that after said 20 hours he would have "plenty of stamina left"

And he categorically said he'd be fine. Twice.

 

[prv]

LMFAO several people have posted that they regularly do this and are fine with it. Why are you stating the opposite as fact?

For what it's worth, I'm with Minn here. I wasn't talking about 20 hours on the helm, I was talking about 20 hours on watch. They're not the same thing.

I wouldn't sail singlehanded without an autopilot. I carry two tillerpilots on KS to make sure I'm never forced to.

Pete