Mingming II is a bilge keeler, good choice?

CAPTAIN FANTASTIC

CAPTAIN FANTASTIC

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
3,311
Location
Bristol Channel
Visit site
Roger Taylor selected a bilge keel boat, an Achilles 24 to replace the Corribee which was also a bilge keeler for his extreme adventures and rough weathers.

There have been numerous posts on the advantages and disadvantages of a bilge or twin keel sailing boat. I have been sailing with fin and long keels all my life except for the last 8 years where I have been sailing my current boat which a 43 year old Macwester Wight, famous for not gripping the water when going upwind. I have enjoyed both keel configurations, but I see the Macwester as a bit of a challenge requiring a bit more knowledge to be able to sail it and keep its speed.

My Bruce Roberts, a long cut away keel boat used to bite in the water, lean sideways and battle through against the seas, unlike the Macwester where it slides sideways when things get bad, and therefore more forgiving and less tiring to sail with.

So, do we have second thoughts about the old bilge and twin keelers; do we need more of these? is there a demand? do younger sailors know much about them?
 
I saw Roger's talk at Burnham-on-Crouch the other week and asked him this question - I'm interested as I have an Achilles 24 triple keel, which is what the new Mingming II is. Roger's view was the shallower the keel the better, within reason of course, as his design principle is based on the cork in a bottle - ie bouyant enough to stay on top of the water without being tripped up by the keel. It is also practical for him as he takes his boat by lorry to the north of Scotland from Essex.

In truth though I don't consider the Achilles to be a true bilge keel design, as it retains the central keel, albeit reduced a little in size though heavier than the fin-keeled version, and has smallish, thin fins on either side which act as stablisers when the boat dries out. I don't find the Achilles 3k to have noticeable leeway in practice, certainly nothing like a bilge keel Westerley Nomad that I've sailed on recently.

P1040649.jpg
 
Last edited:
I've read that the big American trading schooners, when caught out in really bad weather, would heave to with their centreboards raised. That way the boat was able to slide away from the big seas leaving a slick of smoother water between the boat and the approaching waves. This bears out what Roger Taylor says about boats being tripped up by a deep keel, and what Macwester owners have been saying for decades in praise of their shallow-keeled boats.
 
Worth reading Maurice Griffiths on this subject as he had the same views as Roger Taylor. He designed many boats with shallow draft - and triple keels - of which the best known is the Golden Hind 31. In its day it was probably the most popular boat for circumnavigation and behaves exactly as predicted in heavy weather. Downside, of course is poor windward performance, although some later versions with more ballast and a bigger rig were better.
 
Having read Roger Taylors books, I imagine what he says based on vast experience should indeed carry much weight as his theory makes perfect sense. As mentioned above the Americans have traditionally been very keen on shallow draught centerboarders which have proven themselves more than able. I seem to remember Adlard Coles writing in Heavy weather sailing about deep draught yachts effectively being tripped up by their keels in heavy beam seas.
 
bilge keelers making a comeback? http://www.mareehaute.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=61
MH_PH_Django22.JPG
 
markhomer said:
This is a good choice for bilge keeler , if I ever went that way , this what id be looking for :) http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,rm_1260,43?chglg=en
Click to expand...

Those are more properly called twin keels and are very different from the shallow draft "bilge" keel boats more commonly seen in UK. Their objective with twin keels is the ability to dry out in places where there is a big tidal range with no loss of sailing performance, rather than using shallow drying moorings.
 
I'm sure the RM's twin keels are very efficient but I wouldn't want them on a swinging mooring, drying or not. They look custom-made for hooking the riser when the boat gets blown past the buoy in wind over tide conditions.
 
I like them

I think that some, I repeat some, of the anti-twinnests and anti-bilgists is that lots of people have not really experienced life both sides of the fence

The other blessing is that although many of us have sailed in quite strong winds generally we prefer to avoid storms

I hope I never get to find out ghow my twin keels will behave in a storm

right now they are going very well indeed - Harmony is hardly rocking at all

D
 
Austerby said:
In truth though I don't consider the Achilles to be a true bilge keel design, as it retains the central keel, albeit reduced a little in size though heavier than the fin-keeled version, and has smallish, thin fins on either side which act as stablisers when the boat dries out.
Click to expand...

But this is exactly what a true bilge-keeler is -- having a central keel (whether a full-length displacement type or a fin keel) with two small stabilising bilge-keels either side -- perfect if you have to dry out regularly. This is different to a twin-keeler, where the bilge-keels are greatly enlarged and the central keel is done away with altogether (but where the drying-out capacity is still maintained though.)

Here's my old YM 3-Tonner Sanderling -- designed by Alan Buchanan to win the annual prize offered by YM when Maurice Griffiths was editor -- a true bilge-keeler with a full-length displacement hull. The bilge-keels are there specifically for support when drying out (although they do provide some lateral resistance against leeway too).

mud-berth.jpg
mud-berth-3.jpg

Mike
 
I can see why he might want bilge keels, but I can't imagine why he painted the whole interior battleship-grey. I think I might go down with serious cabin fever after a few days riding out a storm down there.
 
Hypothetical question:

Assuming Roger's theory is correct and shallower keels help prevent the boat being "tripped up" by big waves in very heavy weather.

If you were caught out in extreme conditions in a swing keel boat, would you raise the keel? (Assuming the boat had sufficient volume aft to cope with the weight shifting back).
 
Yes, I've heard that American centreboard yachts often do that.

Incidentally, it is recognised in Wayfarer circles that lifting the board is one way of surviving a sudden squall. But you need to leave enough board down so that you can get the boat upright again if you do capsize!
 
A centreboard yacht might be slightly different in that it probably has internal ballast. By raising the keel on a swing keeler you are reducing the righting moment as you're moving the ballasted keel up (and aft).

In the Wayfarer, presumably we are talking about sudden squalls of wind rather than big waves likely to roll the dinghy?
 
It is of course the age old compromise. Shallow draft requires considerably more mass for righting moment. More mass means more wetted area and therefore more drag. More drag requires more sail area which of course means more need for righting moment. It's a recipe for a brick. The opposite course will bring performance but the "tripping over keels" demon, real or perceived, will grow. Hence wide beams and very deep narrow keels (canting where allowed) and retractable dagger boards.

I note that there are no bilge keeled ocean racing yachts. Multihulls are used instead.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Other threads that may be of interest

Frogmogman
My next boat.
2 3
Replies
40
Views
1K
fredrussell
F
boatmike
Merry Fisher 695
Replies
3
Views
225
Bouba
Bouba

Share this page

Top