Midships cleat for mooring... or not?

Bav34

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So I am clear the line runs from your stern and your wife drops it onto the mid cleat on the pontoon, you then put her astern helm over is that correct?
I have a similar recently purchased Bav and am experimenting with various ways to moor up short handed on my mooring the tide runs across the pontoon

No, that picture was just to illustrate how short the pontoon finger is.

We have pre-set lines on the pontoon. Two for the bow and three attached to the aftmost cleat on the finger.

Concentrating on the aft finger cleat:

Shorter preset snubber line. Preset spring that goes through the fairlead and back to the mid cleat. Preset stern line that goes through a fairlead to the aft cleat.

The snubber line has a bowline at the boat end. All I have to do is get my wife onto the pontoon and she just picks up the snubber and drops it over the cleat. Fingers are kept clear as she literally just drops it over ... no leaning out .. if the wind is causing problems I just back out and repeat until she can drop it over safely. Gently ahead, steer in my case to starboard and the boat is literally sucked into the pontoon. Lock off the wheel and the boat would stay there until it ran out of diesel :). SO easy.

Then we put on the stern line you can see in the photo, again an existing bowline but not through the fairlead, just dropped over the cleat.

Then the port bow line through its fairlead

Then the starboard bow line is just dropped over the cleat.

The point of dropping the stern line and bow line over the cleats is that the boat is slightly turned in, probably some rotation in the fender, but really not a problem.

Then the only bit of 'effort'

So far I have literally just been wandering around, no rush, no worry.

I go back to the wheel and at the same time as knocking the engine out of gear I pull the stern line in and drop it through its fairlead.

This pulls the port bow away from the pontoon but only so far, as the line is already in place.

It's then a simple job to go to the bow and put the starboard line through its fairlead.

On the way back onboard my wife then drops the preset spring (from the pontoon) through the fairlead and back to the mid cleat.

All lines are now through their fairleads.

I am sure that this has taken longer to write than do but in five years of berthing on that finger we have never nudged the pontoon or swung out to the boat on our starboard side.
 

doug748

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I have found that the position of the spring is not critical, it could be midships, towards the quarter or off the bow. It will still work with an appropriate jiggle of the throttle and adjustment of the helm.

For the singlehander there is a triple benefit to having the whole spring in the vicinity of the cockpit, though:

It keeps the line short. (esp useful when leaving and having to pull the length through a French closed loop/cleat)
It keeps it close to hand - and to you in the cockpit
It allows you get a loose line ashore and then promptly bring it in short by a ready turn on the genoa winch

I use a stretchy, bright yellow line. Floating, as it sometimes ends up in the oggin on departure.
 
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Jonjo, the point of the snubber is it stops the boat moving forward. Obviously.

It's the engine power AND rudder position that keeps it alongside the pontoon

If the line is forward of the centre the bow will still try to turn in with attendant stern out.

With it aft of centre and the helm over the boat can ONLY be held against the pontoon, in our case absolutely parallel.
Hmm still not 100% clear. Using the diagram from post 6 of the 2009 thread I started, let me play the role of rookie skipper to eliminate all uncertainty.

Given a 2/3 LOA length pontoon finger to port with a classic UK marina cleat at the outer seaward end of the finger.

  1. Approach finger moving ahead with a midcleat snubber line about 1/4 of LOA ready to attach to the finger cleat.
  2. When the mast is abeam of the outer finger cleat ensure boat speed is 0.5kt or lower and then
    attach the snubber line to the clear either via a lasso technqiue of by putting crew onto the finger.
  3. Open engine throttle to about 1/4 revs to drive the boat against the snubber now attached to the finger cleat.
  4. As the line becomes taught apply a little helm and use propwash to drive the stern out against the snubber i.e. away from the finger or in the case of a tiller, the tiller to starboard.
  5. The net effect of driving the boat forward and the stern outwards is that the bow will pivot inwards to the finger until some forward rigged fenders make contact with the finger.
  6. At this point a stable triangle of forces will become established as shown in the 2009 thread diagram.

Lock helm and step ashore at leisure to attach standard for/aft lines and a pair of springs.

The advantage of this procedure is that the boat can be stopped in a stable position with as much as 25% of loa to stern sticking out beyond the pontoon finger. This is useful for very short fingers or unfamiliar marina slots where it is advisable to halt with the bow well short of the jetty.
 

Bav34

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[*]As the line becomes taught apply a little helm and use propwash to drive the stern out against the snubber i.e. away from the finger or in the case of a tiller, the tiller to starboard.
[*]The net effect of driving the boat forward and the stern outwards is that the bow will pivot inwards to the finger until some forward rigged fenders make contact with the finger.

Noooooooooo ! :)

You adjust the helm so that it drives the stern TOWARDS the pontoon.

You don't want the bow in, stern out.
 

laika

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[*]As the line becomes taught apply a little helm and use propwash to drive the stern out against the snubber i.e. away from the finger or in the case of a tiller, the tiller to starboard.
[*]The net effect of driving the boat forward and the stern outwards is that the bow will pivot inwards to the finger until some forward rigged fenders make contact with the finger.

Not quite. When you see people advocating the mid-ship short line without mentioning that what happens next depends on where the midship cleat is with respect to where the boat pivots the procedure is:
* helm to spin the *bow* away from the pontoon
* as the line tautens the stern will pivot in but because a sailing boat doesn't normally taper rapidly to the stern, when just aft of midships is snug against the pontoon and it can't pivot in any more, the bow won't have swung out that much.

That's in complete contrast to the diagram you were given but in practice that diagram shows what happens when the mid ship cleat is a little further forward: See my and Bav34's comments about that.

The method shown in your diagram may actually work fine. The boat will stop in equilibrium. The problem is that the back may swing into the boat on the opposite side of the berth before that equilibrium is reached (because sailing boats taper rapidly going forwards) and (arguably) it looks a bit messy. I say "arguably": it's what my boat does with the "naive" mid-ship shortie method you frequently see described and *I* feel a bit embarrassed by it even though it's practically worked well with no mishap.

The aesthetics of that simple way combined with the way my boat pivots means it's not my short handed method of choice but per previous post we probably need a whole other thread to discuss ways round that. I continue to experiment with embellishments which look neater :)
 
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LittleSister

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I strongly advise you to try before you buy. Or "before you drill any holes" in this case. The widest part of the beam is the obvious place for putting a cleat but it might not be ideal if your primary objective is to be able to pin your boat to the pontoon when mooring short handed.


+1
I found when experimenting on my boat that having a line in the 'obvious' place would not allow me to hold the stern in with the prop and rudder, the boat just pivoted round bows in, stern out, whatever I did with the rudder.

I suggest rigging a line from bow to stern outside the toe rail, and attaching a single mooring line to that, to enable you to try a line in different places fore and aft before committing yourself to something that may not work well. You could either attach and reattach the mooring line at different points on the fore and aft line, or fix it in one place to the fore and aft line (which would need to be a bit longer) and move that backwards and forwards to get different positions.

Out by the toe rail it's also out of the way of feet and toes .

You obviously have much wider side decks than I do!
 

Neil

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Noooooooooo ! :)

You adjust the helm so that it drives the stern TOWARDS the pontoon.

You don't want the bow in, stern out.

Nooooo! to you too! :)

My main problem is when I have a very strong crosswind that is blowing the bows off the pontoon (and on my short finger pontoon this once resulted in the whole boat rotating around the end of the pontoon). Motoring against the midships spring and using the helm to point the bows toward the pontoon keeps everything straight and parallel.

if you point the stern in on a short finger, the stern will round the end of the pontoon, the bows are going to be way off, probably pranging the next door boat.
 
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Bav34

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Nooooo! to you too! :)

My main problem is when I have a very strong crosswind that is blowing the bows off the pontoon (and on my short finger pontoon this once resulted in the whole boat rotating around the end of the pontoon). Motoring against the midships spring and using the helm to point the bows toward the pontoon keeps everything straight and parallel.

if you point the stern in on a short finger, the stern will round the end of the pontoon, the bows are going to be way off, probably pranging the next door boat.

Interesting. I can see what you mean if you have an incredibly short finger with nothing for the boat to sit against it could rotate but my goodness I thought that the Fench had cornered the market in short pontoons.

I've been to quite a few marinas where you had to have the skills of a Cirque du Soleil gymnast to get to the end of the finger ... by which time you were knee deep in water :)
 

johnphilip

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I had a Ballad that I fitted cleats to approx in the position you have shown. They worked a treat for mooring but some times would snag the jib sheets. If I fitted them again I would use a folding cleat or position them inside the shrouds

I have found these Cleat Boots are a great solution, we do a bit of club racing and nothing like catching a jib sheet on a cleat to make you lose the beat.
https://marinestore.co.uk/Cleat_Boot.html

I think the price is for a pair, or it was when I bought some.
 

Wansworth

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On my Albino Vega I lead a rope via a block shackled to the aft lower shroud base, This eliminates the need to fix a cleat and allows for adjustment from the cockpit.
 

Slycat

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Comfort 30 (ballad) owner here.

Track cleat is the way to go. Easy to single hand moor with the cleat on the track. Boat is so beamy its easy to use.

Also. with the track cleat you can swap sides any time, or remove it. Use it every time I go sailing!

c
 

scrambledegg

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I have a couple of thoughts, but never having tried the technique am prepared to be corrected.
* If you have a boat with twin rudders and no propwash over either of them it seems to me the technique could be a lot more problematic
* Would not a midship fairlead be a better option than a midship cleat? Then you could run your "snubbing" line back to the cockpit where a single-hander could control it more easily / adjust the length to fit an unfamiliar mooring situation / possibly use it to slow the boat without putting a high shock load on a deck cleat?

JeremyE
 

Jamesuk

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The stern line works well with a bow thruster.

The mid ship line depending on its position will work well. Sometimes the cleat is too far aft and so pegs the stern in apposed to pegging the beam in. I found that while using lots of boats from 30ft to 50ft at Sunsail with no bow thrusters.

The midship cleat needs to be nice and strong as you will use it a lot. Ideally put two in either side.
 

ex-Gladys

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* Would not a midship fairlead be a better option than a midship cleat? Then you could run your "snubbing" line back to the cockpit where a single-hander could control it more easily / adjust the length to fit an unfamiliar mooring situation / possibly use it to slow the boat without putting a high shock load on a deck cleat?

JeremyE

The critical thing as you say is not the POSITION of the cleat, but the position of the PULL on the line , so yes if you have a fairlead, that is the thing that is critical.

On Gladys (centre cockpit wheel steered) with the lady wife and I we will probably prepare a bow line, but she will use the midline exclusively, and I have a "pseudo stern" line which is attached to old jib sheet cleats mounted right at the aft end of the cockpit - about 8 ft forward of the stern. Particularly in locks, if she misses, attaching, mine really ensures we're secure - I note that yet again this year I forgot to move the midships cleats which are Moody toerail cleats from SL Yachting http://www.proboat.co.uk/item.asp?dep=1&prod_id=732&cat_id=33 which are about 2 ft too far forward.
 

coopec

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I'm not a yachtsman but I did do a "Yachtmaster's Certificate" course and one of the units was "Boat Handling". The vessel we used was a 28 tonne Cray Boat ( Lobster boat) which had a mid ship cleat. By using that we were able to use a spring line to dock the boat in between two boats (already docked) leaving a gap of no more than two meters between both boats (fore/aft). It was so very easy to leave the dock too. (we did have an experienced guy on the spring line though, I must admit)
 

Birdseye

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I have found it works better using a block on the toe rail and running a line through that to the sheet winch. The idea is that I hold one end of the line, with a loop in it, by me at the wheel so that I can just lean over and lasoo a cleat rather than have to go amidships in a hurry to do so. Then I simply winch the boat into the pontoon.

I already have centre cleats but I see the above as easier.
 

MagicalArmchair

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Thank you for all the input, this has been genuinely fascinating, and I hope to use what I have learned on this weekends sail.

Great to hear from other fellow Albin owners too. What track does your have Slycat, Wansworth? Is it 25mm T track? I can't get down to the boat to measure it!
 
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